Understanding spiritual life

[Lyndon]

I think it's just as bad to allow people to wallow in ignorance and delusion. It would be a great disservice not to point things out just for sake of their feelings or whatever.

It's like pulling out a proverbial splinter in the brain. It's going to hurt when you tug it out.

I mean what would be a skillfull means if a person ran up to you and yelled, "My head is gone" ! "My head is gone"!!!

Do you hold up a mirror and say, "Look" , or do you just tell them nonchalantly their head just went thataway bub. ~^.

Yes judging from your political comments, I think it would be a good thing not to wallow in ignorance and delusion, too!!

 

[BilliardsBall]

A question that arises a lot for me this days is. "how can we make so radical critique of a religion or spiritual path we do not follow our self"?

I have done this fault many times my self, but realized that it is not going to help me in the faith; Belief or religious practice i do, The new understanding to me is, " How do ifind the answer needed with in my own belief or religious teachings". I do not need to make critique of others anymore, because it is enough to make critique of my own way of living spiritual life as long i can not even fully grasp or follow the teaching I my self see as truth., so first i must clean up within me. then i maybe can ask questions why others do as they do.

So why do we keep trying to pull down others way of living or belief?

Theists: Because they love God.
Atheists: Because they hate God/concepts of a god.

 

[leov]

A question that arises a lot for me this days is. "how can we make so radical critique of a religion or spiritual path we do not follow our self"?

I have done this fault many times my self, but realized that it is not going to help me in the faith; Belief or religious practice i do, The new understanding to me is, " How do ifind the answer needed with in my own belief or religious teachings". I do not need to make critique of others anymore, because it is enough to make critique of my own way of living spiritual life as long i can not even fully grasp or follow the teaching I my self see as truth., so first i must clean up within me. then i maybe can ask questions why others do as they do.

So why do we keep trying to pull down others way of living or belief?

Old Gnostics, at times of Simon Magus, claimed that a persons should come with their own knowledge (derived from their spiritual connection).

 

[sun rise]

"how can we make so radical critique of a religion or spiritual path we do not follow our self"?

So why do we keep trying to pull down others way of living or belief?

This is sadly human nature. We compare/contrast our beliefs with others and want to believe ours are best.

I see a difference in "critique of Religion" and "critique of Actions" (any Actions, done in name of Religion or not)

That to me is an important point. And to me it's especially true of those who use religion to justify and act upon the most negative emotions of anger, hatred and fear.

 

[MonkeyFire]

A religion is useless, but religion as a single entity like spirituality would make more sense.

 

[robocop (actually)]

A question that arises a lot for me this days is. "how can we make so radical critique of a religion or spiritual path we do not follow our self"?

I have done this fault many times my self, but realized that it is not going to help me in the faith; Belief or religious practice i do, The new understanding to me is, " How do ifind the answer needed with in my own belief or religious teachings". I do not need to make critique of others anymore, because it is enough to make critique of my own way of living spiritual life as long i can not even fully grasp or follow the teaching I my self see as truth., so first i must clean up within me. then i maybe can ask questions why others do as they do.

So why do we keep trying to pull down others way of living or belief?

I tried to be a Jew once. I felt that it was something only one who obeyed those mitzvot/commandments could understand.

 

[Brickjectivity]

A question that arises a lot for me this days is. "how can we make so radical critique of a religion or spiritual path we do not follow our self"?

I have done this fault many times my self, but realized that it is not going to help me in the faith; Belief or religious practice i do, The new understanding to me is, " How do ifind the answer needed with in my own belief or religious teachings". I do not need to make critique of others anymore, because it is enough to make critique of my own way of living spiritual life as long i can not even fully grasp or follow the teaching I my self see as truth., so first i must clean up within me. then i maybe can ask questions why others do as they do.

So why do we keep trying to pull down others way of living or belief?

I think that Islam is the most controversial topic here (next to abortion which is more controversial). Muslim countries are less controversial but still open to criticism. They are a separate subject from Islam, except in that Islam makes political demands. I accept a mixture of views on Islam, and I have known a few Muslims very briefly through work. I also know Debater Slayer a very little and a few others on RF a very little. I also knew decades ago a Muslim who attended my church (probably for lack of a nearby mosque). We have some Muslims visit this site, and some of them live around the globe. That's good, because they can oppose rumors and call unfair criticisms into question. I watch short youtube videos of speakers who try to clarify misunderstandings. I also watch short critical videos. I want to know and understand how Islam affects me, because it does affect me. I try to help everyone who visits to get along with everyone else here.

Buddhism? Here, too, the religion(s) that comprise Buddhism are separate from countries where it is popular, except when Buddhism influences policies. I have made one or two critical posts of Buddhism. I don't remember presently what those criticisms were... There are things I like about it, and some schools I like better than others. I remember one of my criticisms, now; but I won't mention it here out of respect for your wishes in the OP.

Judaism? This one is hard to criticize, because its a Rubik's cube and because its such a passive movement. It doesn't go knocking on your door or expect you to change your actions, although it may try to influence you through music. Bardism is a popular Jewish pastime, and many Jews are bards. You can't go through life without sooner or later hearing a Jewish bard. Most criticisms of Judaism are rumors, and in my experience so far just about all of them have been. Most people don't even know enough to construct a realistic criticism, but I hear bizarre claims sometimes usually stemming from the original Russian pogroms in some way. Its like those pogrommers keep reaching out from the grave to cause pain. They influence the Nazis, and the Nazis influence the middle east and so on. I hear this stuff brought up every year, and its over a century old. Israel (the modern country) is a different subject and much more controversial, and I try to keep separate subjects separate except where Judaism has political effects. Here on RF criticism of Israel is not considered to be criticism of Judaism.

We do not shrink from criticizing politicians and political actions for two reasons. One politicians are public figures, and public figures are considered fair to criticize. Two it is nearly impossible to find a person who isn't corrupted in some way by their political position, and many people find it important to point this out. It is a sort of religious and civic duty for many. Many of the best politicians have questionable personal lives. Its a great reason to encourage term limits for all offices. This has implications for religions, too. Criticism of public religious figures has merit, because they often experience the same sort of corruption as a result of their influential positions.

 

[RoaringSilence]

Thanks to Guru granth sahib for resting my mind by defining god as NIR VAIR ( HATE FREE ) and Self-Existent (who doesn't gain or lose from our worshiping ). ..i think i can use this line in any discussion and it will work.
i can easily discard anything which is jealousy or anger driven as from a diff source than god.

im dealing with my own jealousy and anger constantly , thanks to GGS for guiding me how to.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Thank you to all who take part in this thread And I am sorry that my frustration got into my OP, I want to be a better Buddhist but failing more often than I like (yes it is normal to fail)

If I offended you as a reader, that was not my intention, I had a hope of getting people along to see that Islam in itself is not evil, it is the wrongdoing of some few who destroyed Islam and its reputation.

But as i said earlier in this thread, i will stop posting this form of Question

 

[Windwalker]

So why do we keep trying to pull down others way of living or belief?

It is not uncommon that when someone is trying to find what works for them, they look at what doesn't work for them as a way to differentiate themselves from others. Neo-atheism for instance defines itself as being rationalistic, therefore in order to take on that robe of rationality, they find fault in the mythic beliefs of religions, poking fun at them, showing how ridiculous and irrational they are. All this is a not-so-subtle way of saying they are more rational than religion, therefore they are on the true path now.

I relate this to what it is like as we grow up, shifting between major stages of development in one's life, such as moving between preteen and teen years. We see ourselves wanting to play with the sorts of toys and interests we did when we were 10, but we realize that a 12 year old is getting too old for that now. So we say, "that's stupid kid stuff", in order begin to emerge into what we are growing into, putting behind the ways of a child.

The problem with this is that if we get stuck there and not realize that being 10 is perfectly fine. If we continue forever saying, "stupid kid stuff", then we haven't actually grown into the teens yet emotionally. We aren't maturing. We are stuck on the past, yet not fully letting it go into our past. It's like identifying yourself as "divorced", rather than single for the rest of your life following a divorce. It's not moving on and getting on with the business of growing up.

Once we begin to integrate a new way of living and seeing life through, once we begin to mature and grown spiritually, emotionally, mentally, and physically, then that becomes the focus. The past falls to the past and becomes part of who we are positively. As my father said wisely to me as I was growing up, "There is nothing we have ever done in our life that is lost and we won't use in some way later".

While we may transcend our past ways of thinking and practicing religion, they are never lost. Eventually, the best of what the past offered is brought forwards, while the parts that didn't work are not carried forwards. If we are fixated on being right and others wrong, we're either still trying to differentiate ourselves in order to find who we want to become, or we are stuck in a bad habit and not facing truly letting go and becoming who we want to become.

 

[RoaringSilence]

It is not uncommon that when someone is trying to find what works for them, they look at what doesn't work for them as a way to differentiate themselves from others. Neo-atheism for instance defines itself as being rationalistic, therefore in order to take on that robe of rationality, they find fault in the mythic beliefs of religions, poking fun at them, showing how ridiculous and irrational they are. All this is a not-so-subtle way of saying they are more rational than religion, therefore they are on the true path now.

I relate this to what it is like as we grow up, shifting between major stages of development in one's life, such as moving between preteen and teen years. We see ourselves wanting to play with the sorts of toys and interests we did when we were 10, but we realize that a 12 year old is getting too old for that now. So we say, "that's stupid kid stuff", in order begin to emerge into what we are growing into, putting behind the ways of a child.

The problem with this is that if we get stuck there and not realize that being 10 is perfectly fine. If we continue forever saying, "stupid kid stuff", then we haven't actually grown into the teens yet emotionally. We aren't maturing. We are stuck on the past, yet not fully letting it go into our past. It's like identifying yourself as "divorced", rather than single for the rest of your life following a divorce. It's not moving on and getting on with the business of growing up.

Once we begin to integrate a new way of living and seeing life through, once we begin to mature and grown spiritually, emotionally, mentally, and physically, then that becomes the focus. The past falls to the past and becomes part of who we are positively. As my father said wisely to me as I was growing up, "There is nothing we have ever done in our life that is lost and we won't use in some way later".

While we may transcend our past ways of thinking and practicing religion, they are never lost. Eventually, the best of what the past offered is brought forwards, while the parts that didn't work are not carried forwards. If we are fixated on being right and others wrong, we're either still trying to differentiate ourselves in order to find who we want to become, or we are stuck in a bad habit and not facing truly letting go and becoming who we want to become.

its a possibility that religion was induced in small doses until we 'e ready to the next evolve. however some scriptures are timeless.

 

[Windwalker]

its a possibility that religion was induced in small doses until we 'e ready to the next evolve. however some scriptures are timeless.

I've spent many hours trying to gain perspective on that question. A spiritual visionary punches through to some radical new paradigm shift. People who are disenfranchised with the current vision of reality of a given cultural system, of which religion is embedded within and reflective of, will respond to the new insights of the new visionary and a social movement ensues, scooping up all manner of others with different ideas and perspectives within it, like collecting a giant snowball.

However, very few have the necessary insights to really grasp that vision. And everything gets interpreted downward, closer to the system that they are trying to move past. Pretty soon, the religion is reflective of the normal human modes that look a lot like what they were trying to escape in the first place. Then within that new "normalized" religion, there are those few who seek a greater truth than the current normalized religious system, and a new vision arises that says the same as the original new vision had, but had gotten dumbed down to reflect human normalcy. And so the cycle goes, every so many decades or generations or so.

In the end, it really isn't the external trappings of the religion that mean anything, but how those affect the vision of the person who is brave enough and willing enough to step beyond the normalcy of the system. Those that do however, often find themselves being pulled back down into the crab bucket of normalized religion. But those who can pull free, realize the open sea.