1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Understanding John 1:1

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by filthyrottendirty, Mar 16, 2021.

  1. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,453
    Ratings:
    +324
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    If you believe that the bible has no contradictions, then you have never studied your bible, and therefore are ignorant to the truth revealed therejn: And I have never claimed that Jesus is God. He has been appointed by the God of our ancestors, as our King and high priest in the same manner as Melchizedek was, but he is not the God, as revealed in scripture.

    Which is correct? The OT, which states that Arpachshad is the father of Shelah, or the NT, which states that Cainam the son of Arpachshad, is the father of Shelah. Why is Shelah not even mentioned in the genealogy of Noah to Abraham, Genesis 11?

    I am saying that every translator of the many different editions of the many Christian denominations, who have agreed that the Israelites were in the land of Egypt for 430 years are ignorant to the scriptures that prove them wrong. How could Jochebed the daughter of Levi be the mother of Moses? Even if she were born in the year that Levi died at the age of 118, which is highly improbable, she would had to have been 232 years old when she gave birth to Moses.

    How ignorant to the scriptures were the authors of the GNB bible, who claim that Zeruiah and Abigail were the daughters of Jesse?
     
    #161 The Anointed, Apr 2, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,295
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    I would say that you are mistaken. “Babylon the great” is a ‘greater’ version of original Babylon....which was the springboard from which all false religious beliefs sprang after the flood of Noah’s day....the instigator of which was Nimrod....who still features prominently in false religion in the Northern Hemisphere.

    “Babylon the great” was not in a single geographical location, but is a global empire of false religion engineered by the devil who was given rulership over the whole world. (1 John 5:18; Luke 4:5-6) All false worship originated in Babylon. Most of Christendom’s foundational doctrines can be traced back to Babylon, not the Bible.

    You seem obsessed with “cults” but what is your own religion? Certainly a fringe group....so probably also a “cult” in some people’s estimations.

    The Watchtower Society is a legal organization used by Jehovah’s Witnesses to print and distribute Bible based literature.
    We are Not “The Watchtower”.....we are Jehovah’s Witnesses....because witnessing is what Christians are commanded to do. Knocking on doors was the way the first Christians “witnessed” to their neighbors. (Acts 20:20; Matthew 10:11-14) Face to face is still the best way to witness.

    Since “faith without works is dead” (James 2:14-26) we believe that faith must be backed up by works.
    We “behave well” because Jesus expects us to obey him and follow his example.....and we discipline those who sin unrepentantly because we are instructed to do that too. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13; 2 John 10) Is there a reason why you don’t?

    Why have no Messianic Jews, or any other members of Christendom’s churches, ever come to me with “the good news of the Kingdom”? Jesus said it would be preached “in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations” before the foretold “end” was to come. (Matthew 24:14) Why are they missing in this work that Jesus commanded and said that he would back? (Matthew 28:19-20) Preaching was a command, not a suggestion.

    Jesus sent his disciples out into all the towns and villages to bring the message of salvation to the people....and he did so to those of his own faith, with Gentiles being included later.

    Trusting in Jesus means that we obey his instructions, and since God has always appointed men to lead his worshippers, we have to determine whom Jesus appointed as his “faithful and discreet slave” assigned to “feed” his whole household of fellow slaves their “food at the proper time” (Matthew 24:45) We are all “fed” by someone....so, who is feeding you?

    We need to identify this composite slave by their “fruits”......that is the kind of people that they produce.....will they be perfect? No more so than any of Jesus’ apostles, but by and large as a global brotherhood, they will be at peace and in harmony, preaching and teaching others to obey “ALL” that Jesus taught and commanded....not just the convenient stuff.

    When I was looking for those ones, whom Jesus described, JW’s ticked more boxes for me than any others. They still do. I have never come across any who even come close....
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,453
    Ratings:
    +324
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    The Jews used the word 'LORD' in place of JHWH, and would not repeat the Lord's holy name, which translated to English means 'I AM' see Exodus 3: 14; and as you preach in English, why do you not either change the name 'JHWH' to 'LORD' as did the Jews, or call yourselves, 'WITNESS TO 'I AM?'

    If you are going to translate the Hebrew into English, then why do you not translate the Hebrew 'JHWH' into English? Are you like the Jews who believed that it was not proper to say, I am true to my God, 'Who I am.'

    Well I for one am not ashamed to use Gods holy name, 'WHO I AM,'

    I am who I am, may I never lose sight
    Of the fact that I am who I am day and night
    I'm not who I was, nor who I will be.
    For 'WHO I AM' Is the name that MY God gave to me.

    'Who I AM' the only name in heaven and earth by which we can be saved.

    John 8: 28; So he (Who spoke in the name of the Lord, only that which he was commanded to say) said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, you will know that ‘I Am Who I Am’; then you will know that I do nothing on my own authority, but I say only what 'THE' Father has instructed me to say. The JW's bible has 'I AM' in brackets.

    Jesus was the one of who the Lord God our savior, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put 'MY WORDS' in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. I myself will punish anyone who does not listen to 'MY WORDS' that the prophet speaks in 'MY NAME.'

    John 17: 12; "While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave me.

    So, get behind me you charlatans, you priests who are shams
    For I am true to my God, to 'MY GOD, WHO I AM.'
     
    #163 The Anointed, Apr 2, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,295
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    The Jews stopped uttering God's name, but were never commanded to stop doing so. They substituted the title "Adonai" (LORD, meaning "Sir" or "Master")

    As a matter of fact they were told to use God's name throughout their generations.....but they disobeyed him and not for the reason that they gave to justify it either.

    Exodus 3:13-15 from the Tanakh....

    "And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"


    14God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

    15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation."

    "The Lord God" in verse 15 is the Tetragrammaton ( יְהֹוָ֞ה ) His name was to be "mentioned in every generation"...."forever"!.


    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864

    As you can see from this Jewish translation, God's name means "I Will Be What I Will Be".

    Anyone who makes a connection between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 are betraying a lack of Bible knowledge.
    Jesus was answering a question about his age, not his status as a deity and certainly not admitting to being "I AM" since that was not God's name. His name is not a statement about his existence, (the Jews already knew who he was) but its about his intentions. He "Will Become" whatever he needs to be in order to accomplish his purpose. He proved that by how he dealt with Pharaoh in Egypt, and also how he dealt with the stubborn Israelites in the wilderness.

    The divine name is translated in English to "Jehovah"....or the transliteration "Yahweh"......But no one knows the correct pronunciation in Hebrew, and since we don't usually speak or read Hebrew, there is a correct pronunciation in English that has been accepted for thousands of years. God is the inventor of language so he recognizes his name in any language. If "Jehovah" is wrong (since there is no "J" in Hebrew) then every other "J" name in the Bible is wrong too.....even "Jesus".

    Jehovah's Witnesses is what we call ourselves because its what we are and what we do.
     
  5. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,453
    Ratings:
    +324
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," or so states the erroneous JWs Bible, but the KJV, The Jerusalem bible, The Living bible, The Fireside New American bible, The NSV, The Good news Bible, The Full Life Study bible, The new Spirit- filled Life bible, and others, all have the English interpretation of JHWH, as being 'I AM WHO I AM' and that God tells Moses to say to the people "I AM' has sent me, and that the name JHWH which is translated to English as 'I AM' is his name forever.

    From the Hebrew bible in English

    יד וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים אֶל-מֹשֶׁה, אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה; וַיֹּאמֶר, כֹּה תֹאמַר לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, אֶהְיֶה, שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם. 14 And God said unto Moses: 'I AM THAT I AM'; and He said: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.'

    טו וַיֹּאמֶר עוֹד אֱלֹהִים אֶל-מֹשֶׁה, כֹּה-תֹאמַר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי אֲבֹתֵיכֶם אֱלֹהֵי אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהֵי יִצְחָק וֵאלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב, שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם; זֶה-שְּׁמִי לְעֹלָם, וְזֶה זִכְרִי לְדֹר דֹּר. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, and this is My memorial unto all generations.

    What is his name according to the Hebrew bible? Now why would anyone believe the erroneous JW bible?
     
  6. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,910
    Ratings:
    +352
    Religion:
    jw עדי יהווה
    it seems you are stock on ''i am'' . Pharaoh did not know who Jehovah is he had never seen his power or that he could control . ''I Am'' means he does exist and is ready and willing to prove it .

    Exodus 5:1-2
    1 Afterward, Moses and Aaron went in and said to Pharaoh: “This is what Jehovah the God of Israel says, ‘Send my people away so that they may celebrate a festival to me in the wilderness.’” 2 But Pharaoh said: “Who is Jehovah, that I should obey his voice to send Israel away? I do not know Jehovah at all, and what is more, I will not send Israel away.”

    the record is clear, Pharaoh did in deed learn what Jehovah could and would do
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,295
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    If you had clicked on the link you would see it was from the Jewish Tanakh. ( chabad.org)
    It was not from the NWT at all. Please pay attention.

    Exodus 3:14, read it for yourself...https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864
    I am told it is a trusted Jewish source of information. Argue with them, not me....

    Because it's what the Jewish Tanakh says.....Its "YHWH" because there is no "J" in Hebrew.

    Exodus 3:15......"God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"
    Is what it says in Hebrew.....


    Since when does God need to tell the Israelites that he exists? They have just seen the most amazing demonstrations of his power in liberating them from Egyptian slavery.....he is telling them the meaning of his name because he "Will Be" whatever he needs to be so that his will can be accomplished through them.
     
    #167 Deeje, Apr 3, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  8. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,453
    Ratings:
    +324
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    But, of every English OT that I have revealed, none one use the word Jehovah, but have, in that instance, translated the word Jehovah to 'THE LORD.' whereas in Exodus 3: 14; YHWH, is translated as 'I am who I am,' and 'I AM.' That is, except for the JWs who refuse to translate the Hebrew word 'Jehovah' to its English equivalent.
     
  9. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,453
    Ratings:
    +324
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    Because it's what the Jewish Tanakh says.....Its "YHWH" because there is no "J" in Hebrew.

    Then why do your mob use the 'J' in naming your God. But My God gave his name as 'I AM' which is the English transaltion of the Hebrew YHWH

    Exodus 3:15......"God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"
    Is what it says in Hebrew.....

    Exodus 3:14......"God said to Moses, "I Am who I am. You must tell them 'I AM,' has sent you, and He said, "Tell the Israelites that I, the Lord; the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them. This is my name forever, etc.

    Since when does God need to tell the Israelites that he exists? They have just seen the most amazing demonstrations of his power in liberating them from Egyptian slavery.....he is telling them the meaning of his name because he "Will Be" whatever he needs to be so that his will can be accomplished through them.

    Wrong again. Up until the day Moses returned from the land of Midian, the descendants of Abraham had never seen any amazing miracles that had been performed by the Lord.

    What
    'I AM,' the God of their ancestors, was telling the Israelites, was, that HE, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, had sent the 80 years old Moses to force the King of Egypt, who knew nothing of Joseph, who with all his brothers had died, and who was killing all the new born Israelite males, to allow them free passage back to their own country which "I AM" had given to them as an everlasting inheritance. And it was after Moses had begun his mission that they saw the most amazing demonstrations of the power of "I AM,"
     
  10. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,910
    Ratings:
    +352
    Religion:
    jw עדי יהווה
    I AM is a affirmation a statement of being . the Pharaoh found out that his god's had no power . Pharaoh and all of Egypt found out the hard way that there is a god that had more than just a name. and yet you ,you are stuck on words that give proof of his existence. he is what he is ,he is Jehovah God
     
  11. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,910
    Ratings:
    +352
    Religion:
    jw עדי יהווה
    would is surprise you to learn there is one, that is mentioned in the bible, than has never had his name reveled ?? he is known as Satan yet that is not his name . he does have influence ,even referred to as a god .he would like to remove Jehovah's name from the bible .all most did . as you say, so many bibles do not use the name Jehovah but have removed and replaced it with the word LORD . did you note it has 4 upper case letters? it is a sign to you that the name Jehovah was removed
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    10,493
    Ratings:
    +845
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    I come to you with good news of the Kingdom. Trust Jesus, who is God, not your good works, for eternal life, and receive eternal life as a free gift IMHO per the Bible.

    I preach and witness, I'm the development director for a ministry with 230 full time gospel workers in Asia and a tour director for a top campus outreach ministry.

    JWs don't bring me Kingdom news, usually, they ignore those who pass by their tables.

    I bring you good news for all Bereans to search the scriptures for yourself to interpret them, rather than rely on Watchtower materials to tell you what the scripture says.

    If ones were sleeping until JWs taught more clearly, how are there so many NT statements that the Bible and God's leading via the Spirit is all we need to find good doctrine?
     
  13. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    10,493
    Ratings:
    +845
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    So the Bible has contradictions, but we'll ignore the failed, false prophecies of the Watchtower society, and take Watchtower commentary above the Holy Bible?
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,295
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Do you? As another faction of Christendom....or as Jews claiming to be Christians?

    What exactly is the Kingdom? All my youth was spent praying the Lord’s Prayer every week and yet I never knew what Jesus meant when he told us about the Kingdom. How does it “come” so that God’s will is “done on earth as it s in heaven”? How is God’s name “hallowed” by people who never use it?

    In Asia? A top campus outreach ministry? That’s all you have? How does that fulfill Matthew 24:14?
    There are 8.5 million of us preaching in every nation on earth.....and we are all ministers of the kingdom. (Matthew 28:19-20) We are actively supporting Christ’s “brothers” in this work who are still here on earth. (Matthew 25:31-46)...those who are chosen as priests to rule with him in his kingdom. (Revelation 20:6)

    Our tables are only part of our ministry. Until Covid hit, we were taking the kingdom message to our close neighbors, not just to people in far away lands. Who did Jesus and his apostles preach to? Do you see ‘development directors’ or ‘tour directors’ needed in any of their activities?

    The Beroeans did not interpret the scriptures for themselves at all.....they checked the scriptures to make sure that the apostles were adhering to them by what they taught.

    Deciding for yourself is not the way Jesus said that his disciples would be spiritually “fed”. In these last days, Jesus appointed a “faithful and discreet slave” who would dispense spiritual “food” to all his household “at the proper time”. (Matthew 24:45) Anyone not being fed from their table was eating something contaminated......not from Jesus at all.
    So who is that “slave”? There is no mention of feeding ourselves. God has always provided teachers for his people.....we just have to find the right ones.

    What is “good doctrine”?

    If God was directing the various churches of Christendom, they would all be led by the same spirit, creating oneness or unity of belief and conduct. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
    Christendom is irreparably fractured.....it is full of divisions...literally thousands of them. If they all spoke in agreement according to the scriptures, we would see no evidence of such disunity.
    God’s spirit is indeed leading his people, who are no part of the world, it’s rulership, it’s conflicts or its false worship.

    We are deep into “the time of the end” spoken about by Daniel (Daniel 12:4; 9-10).....do you believe this?
     
  15. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    10,493
    Ratings:
    +845
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    I think I understand. JWs are better Christians than other Christians. You've made this clear.

    Only perfect people can get into Heaven, and the only atonement that cleanses sin is the death and resurrection of Jesus, per the Bible, not your works. Your works and mine are like filthy menstrual rags.
     
  16. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    37,019
    Ratings:
    +5,517
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    Jesus was. At some point, we all have been.
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,295
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    No! I don’t think you understand at all. You are simply seeing things through your chosen lens, and your defensiveness is understandable. It’s a minefield.

    From the purely scriptural standpoint, God is not interested in what ‘label’ we wear. He has appointed Jesus as the judge of every one of us. He is the one who provides the criteria for what it means to be a true “Christian”. I say “true Christian” because Jesus clearly spoke about the ‘counterfeits’ that he would encounter at the judgment. (Matthew 7:21-23) These ones appear to be clueless about their status as disciples of their “Lord”. They are shocked at his rejection, but Jesus finds them practicing a faith he does not recognise. (Luke 6:46)

    Jesus encountered a corrupted form of worship in Judaism, but he was not sent to the religious leaders who promoted that worship, he was sent to rescue the “sheep” who were “lost” because their incorrigible shepherds had lost the plot. He led them out of that system and into a new covenant arrangement. But he foretold that Christianity would also be corrupted...and for the same reasons. Men would again introduce man-made traditions as teachings of Jesus. (Matthew 15:7)
    We all have to examine our beliefs because if we follow the majority (the “many”) who wear the “Christian” label it is no guarantee that we will be part of the “few” who are on the right road. (Matthew 7:13-14)

    God never intended humans to go to heaven. He already had a whole family of “sons” who were created to live there. He prepared this earth as the permanent home for his fleshly sons and daughters.

    If our first parents had simply obeyed their Creator, Jesus would never have needed to lay down a human life to redeem us. Sin and death would never have entered the human experience.

    Those who are chosen to go to heaven have a specific purpose as “kings and priests” (Revelation 20:6) But since there are no sinners in heaven, who is ruled by them, and for whom do they act as priests?

    It is NEVER a case of “we are better Christians than you”.....our sole purpose in exposing the kind of religious error that overtook Judaism, is the same as Jesus had in exposing the corruption among his own people. He sent his disciples out to reach them with his message.....they did not have to travel far to speak to them...they were his neighbors and those within a relatively short distance away. These were ones who supposedly worshipped the same God.

    The apostles travelled further than Jesus did, but he told them that they would. (Acts 1:8) Eventually his message would reach out to people in every nation. (Matthew 24:14) When that work was done, “the end” would come. What do you see as “the end”? What ends?

    What kind of Christians would we be if we were to remain silent and just let fellow believers be led down the wrong path?
    Remember who it was who sowed the seeds of counterfeit Christianity. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43)

    Jesus led his disciples out of a corrupt religious system, and he is doing the same today for those who see the truth. (John 6:65) If we choose false beliefs over an inconvenient truth, then God will not interfere with our choices. He will welcome only those who love the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

    Please understand my motives in this discussion. Unless error is exposed, it grows.
     
    #177 Deeje, Apr 6, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  18. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    10,493
    Ratings:
    +845
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    There's a nation of kings and priests for the coming Millennial reign, when God will reign over the righteous and the wicked and their descendants for 1,000 years. Armies are annihilated at Armageddon, not everyone.

    My chief concerns in this conversation:

    1) You are missing the power, blessing, miracles and healing that come from Jesus and using Jesus's Name, asking in His Name. He told us we'd receive many things in His Name.

    2) You have a good news of striving for eternal life by performing religious works. I have a good news of salvation (per the Bible) that comes from trusting Jesus Christ as Savior, a free gift.
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,295
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    The opportunity to become "a nation of kings and priests" was originally held out only to fleshly Israel.....but they could never stay on track for long. Their history, (warts and all) is recorded in the Hebrew scriptures for us to learn from their bad attitude and disobedience. But how long was God going to tolerate their unfaithfulness and stubborn refusal to be corrected? .....only until his purpose in connection with them was realized. He produced their Messiah, whom the majority of Jews rejected and finally did as Jesus said they would....

    Matthew 23:37.....
    " Yerushalayim! Yerushalayim! You kill the prophets! You stone those who are sent to you! How often I wanted to gather your children, just as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but you refused!" (John 8:59)
    He then pronounced sentence upon them....
    "Look! God is abandoning your house to you, leaving it desolate." 39 For I tell you, from now on, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of Adonai.’(CJB)

    They were responsible for the murder of God's son.....a man sent into the world to provide the means of salvation to them first, (Acts 13:44-51) and then to those among the Gentiles who wanted to follow the Messiah's teachings and instructions. These then became "the Israel of God"....a new nation under a new covenant. (Galatians 6:16)

    The Jews as a nation left God no choice but to abandon them as the serial covenant breakers they proved to be. And what do we see today? The Jews are just another blood spilling nation politically allied with those whose worship they despise. History repeats and they never learn......so what did God do about that?
    "Shim‘on has told in detail what God did when he first began to show his concern for taking from among the Goyim a people to bear his name. " (Acts 15:14 CJB)

    God's people had always come into battle, in defending their God-given land, in the name of Yahweh....and their God never let them down unless they were disobedient to him.....how often did he abandon them to their enemies to punish them and to teach them obedience, or to wait till the worst of the disobedient ones died out? (e.g. like their 40 year wandering in the wilderness...or their 70 years of captivity in Babylon) Don't fool yourself into believing that the fleshly nation of Israel has any real connection with God anymore. They lost their land and their privilege as God's chosen nation...so their wait for their Messiah will prove to be in vain.

    At Acts 24:15, the apostle Paul said plainly in his defense....."And I continue to have a hope in God — which they too accept — that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."

    Jesus is the one assigned to resurrect the dead, and he will call them all from the same place.....their graves. (John 5:28-29)....so he will resurrect both the "righteous and the unrighteous"....but NOT the incorrigibly wicked.
    When Jesus consigned the religious leaders to "Gehenna", that was a place from which no one returns to life. (Matthew 23:15; 33) Those leaders had no excuse to oppose God's son.....and likewise today, those who willingly follow false religious leaders, will share in the same fate....but it will be their own choice.

    Eternal life in the Bible is contrasted with eternal death, not eternal conscious punishment. The Bible makes a distinction between someone who acted unrighteously because they were ignorant...and those who knew better but deliberately went against God's laws and commands. Gehenna is not hades. Only hades (sheol) is emptied. (Revelation 20:13) The "lake of fire" (gehenna) remains forever as the receptacle for those who, in the future, might try what satan or Adam did and abuse their free will. God has already proven the rightfulness of his Sovereignty and the value of obedience to him.....he will never have to do so again.

    You are making assumptions here......on the contrary, I have personally received many blessings and answers to my prayers. I don't need "miracles and healing" to prove my Christianity because these prove nothing...in fact just the opposite....
    If we go back to Jesus at the judgment, what do those whom he rejects say to him?
    Matthew 7:22-23...
    "On that Day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! Didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we expel demons in your name? Didn’t we perform many miracles in your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them to their faces, ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’’"

    The apostle Paul goes further....in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12...
    "When this man who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders. 10 He will enable him to deceive, in all kinds of wicked ways, those who are headed for destruction because they would not receive the love of the truth that could have saved them. 11 This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie. 12 The result will be that all who have not believed the truth, but have taken their pleasure in wickedness, will be condemned."

    Where did those 'false miracles' and 'signs and wonders' come from? Certainly NOT from God!

    If James was inspired to write that "faith without works is dead" then we need to have a living faith that moves us to action, not a passive belief that is selfishly concentrating on our own salvation.

    James wrote...James 2:14-26 CJB...
    " What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but has no actions to prove it? Is such “faith” able to save him?. . . .Thus, faith by itself, unaccompanied by actions, is dead. . . .But someone will say that you have faith and I have actions. Show me this faith of yours without the actions, and I will show you my faith by my actions! . . . But, foolish fellow, do you want to be shown that such “faith” apart from actions is barren?. . . . Indeed, just as the body without a spirit is dead, so too faith without actions is dead."

    If your faith is not backed up by works, it is a dead faith. Where did Paul or any of the apostles ever contradict James' statement? By their own activities, they lived it.

    So where does that leave those who think that faith alone will save them? Is believing enough?
    "You believe that “God is one”? Good for you! The demons believe it toothe thought makes them shudder with fear!" (James 2:19 CJB)

    Food for thought....
     
  20. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    10,493
    Ratings:
    +845
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    I didn't realize the JWs were anti-Semitic, which was food for thought. I didn't realize they misunderstood the clear Bible teaching that the rejection and death of the Christ was in God's predetermined plan for salvation, to save His people from their sin (Matthew 1) and not just save the hard-working "good" sinners.

    I didn't mention "false miracles" and "false signs and wonders" but you have also explained that JWs are cessationist and disbelieve in healings and deliverance--again, I'd urge you if you desire healing, pursue Jesus, per the Holy Bible.

    Faith in Jesus does save: John 1:12, John 5:24, Romans 6:23, John 3:16, to name but a few. You join the Catholics, Mormons and other work-salvation groups in misinterpreting James 2. James 2 CANNOT contradict Romans 6:23 "Salvation is a GIFT". The Bible is perfect.

    Be a Berean, I urge you. I'm personally aware that one is disallowed from interpreting the scriptures without the "help" of the Watchtower literature and Internet. None of what you posted here is from YOU.

    My hope is you will share this with others in your movement, perhaps some of them will find Jesus Christ.
     
Loading...