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Featured Understanding John 1:1

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by filthyrottendirty, Mar 16, 2021.

  1. tigger2

    tigger2 Active Member

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    cOLTER wrote in post #81:

    7. Hebrews 1:8 (NASB), “But of the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of his kingdom.'”

    1. NWT: “But about the Son, he says: ‘God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.'”

    2. This is a verse where God the Father is calling Jesus God: “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.'” Since the Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t agree with that, they have changed the Bible, yet again, to agree with their theology. They have translated the verse as “…God is your throne…” The problem with the Jehovah’s Witness translation is that this verse is a quote from Psalm 45:6 which, from the Hebrew, can only be translated as “…Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.” To justify their New Testament translation they actually changed the OT verse to agree with their theology, too! - Bolding added by T2.

    ..........................................

    Hebrews 1:8 is one of the more commonly used scriptures for trinitarian “evidence” in spite of (in reality, because of) its obvious ambiguity. This is because on the surface (at least as found in some trinitarian-translated Bibles) it looks clear and straightforward. Also not many people have the means or the inclination to examine it more closely.

    Heb. 1:8 in the King James Version (AV or KJV) is rendered:

    “But unto the son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

    Since “he saith” and the second “is” (found after “righteousness”) in the above verse are not actually found in the original manuscripts and have been added by the KJV and other translators, they are found in italics in most printings of the KJV.

    But more importantly (as a quick glance into any interlinear Greek-English New Testament will show) the first “is” (found after “God”) in the above verse is also not in the original manuscripts but has been added by some modern translators.

    Yes, literally the original NT Greek manuscripts read: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age.”

    Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:
    “God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

    University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

    “In Heb. 1:8 it is not certain whether (Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς) ὁ θεὸς is vocative or nominative.” - A.T. Robertson, Grammar, p. 465. In other words, trinitarian scholar A.T. Robertson is saying that Heb. 1:8 could be rendered as either “Your throne, O God (vocative)” OR “God is your throne (nominative).”

    An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

    The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

    The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

    NSB - God is your throne

    Mace - "God is thy throne….”

    Twentieth Century New Testament - ‘God is thy throne….’

    Another acclaimed scholar of Christendom has translated this verse similarly and made some interesting comments. Trinitarian Dr. William Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

    Noted trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” or “God is thy throne”/“thy throne is God” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - p. 339, Word Pictures in the New Testament.

    The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

    Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the famous trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”
    Remember that Paul is really quoting from Ps. 45:6.

    The RSV renders Ps. 45:6 as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides this alternate reading: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”

    The NRSV says in a footnote: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”

    The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.”

    The Holy Scriptures (JPS version) says: “Thy throne given of God.”

    The Bible in Living English (Byington) says: “God is your throne.”

    New International Reader’s Version (NIRV): “Your throne is the very throne of God.”

    The Good News Bible (GNB), a very trinitarian paraphrase Bible, renders it: “The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever.”

    The REB has: “God has enthroned you for all eternity.”
    The NJB gives us: “your throne is from God.”

    Leeser - “Thy throne, given of God, endureth for ever”

    We also see the following statement by respected trinitarian scholars in a footnote for this passage:

    “45:6 O God. Possibly the king’s throne is called God’s throne because he is God’s appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as ‘god.’” - Ps. 45:6 f.n. in the NIV Study Bible (1985).

    In addition to the above renderings by many respected translators (most of whom are trinitarian), we have the statement by perhaps one of the greatest scholars of Biblical Hebrew, H. F. W. Gesenius. In his famous and highly respected Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Gesenius renders Ps. 45:6, “thy throne shall be a divine throne.”

    So, this conclusion in post #81 ("The problem with the Jehovah’s Witness translation is that this verse is a quote from Psalm 45:6 which, from the Hebrew, can only be translated as “…Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.” To justify their New Testament translation they actually changed the OT verse to agree with their theology, too!") - - is incredibly false.

    It really takes very little time and effort to find this claim by Matt Slick to be false and dishonest.
     
    #101 tigger2, Mar 20, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2021
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  2. tigger2

    tigger2 Active Member

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    Sorry, this was a repeat.
     
    #102 tigger2, Mar 20, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2021
  3. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    If unsuccessfully, there are many verses about Jesus being God against a verse being misinterpreted.

    So I'll ask, why do hundreds of other translations, for centuries before the JW's "discovered linguistic" truth, ALL translate John 1:1 differently?
     
  4. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Of course it does. Now consider:

    1) Thousands of teams of translators, working from Greek (or if you like, Latin, etc.) to indigenous languages all disagree with the cult's (mis)translation

    2) There are MANY other verses demonstrating/proclaiming/fulfilling prophecy that Jesus is GOD, ONE with the Godhead
     
  5. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    i find it interesting that the NWTHS is one of the only bibles were John 1:1 does not contradict it self even before the verse gets to the period at the end of the verse.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    And all those “thousands” believe that the trinity is true....how do you think they are going to translate John 1:1? :rolleyes: It’s called bias.

    How do they translate John 1:18? If “no man has seen God at any time”, then Jesus was not God.

    There is not one direct statement from either Jehovah, Jesus or the Holy Spirit that any of them are Almighty God except one....the Father.
    There is no such thing as a “godhead”. That word was invented by trinitarians.
    In Greek it is "theotēs" which means "deity".....or that which relates to God's deity.

    The CSB translates those verses.....
    Colossians 2:8-10....
    "Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elements of the world, rather than Christ. 9 For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ, 10 and you have been filled by him, who is the head over every ruler and authority."

    Read the previous verse there...its a warning not to be taken in by "empty deceit based on human tradition...rather than Christ." It renders "theotēs" as "the entire fullness of God’s nature" which was more evident in God's firstborn son than in any other being apart from God himself. Colossians 1:15-17 states clearly that Jesus was "the firstborn of all creation" with Revelation 3:14 confirming that he was "the beginning of the creation of God."

    There is “God the Father” clearly stated (1 Corinthians 8:6) but never do we see “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit” ever mentioned. Catholicism invented those terms to support their triune god. They are not mentioned in the Bible because they are not God, but they are "sent" by him....(John 3:16; John 14:26) God used them to accomplish his will.

    There is 'only one true God'....and that is the Father. (John 17:3)
     
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  7. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    While I have explanations of importance for John 1:18 and etc. it seems you want me to first accept that teams of translators, working for millennia in different nations, all translated some verses equally, while a cult that controls the lives of its members and has actually demonic doctrine per 1 Timothy got it right--also that somehow men missed the truth about Jesus entirely for millennia after He came and gave the Spirit to lead us into all understanding about contending for the faith delivered to the saints long before the cult arose.

    This I cannot do.
     
  8. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    The only translators for millennia to mistranslate John 1 are cult members.
     
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    What you can and cannot do is entirely up to you, but when the judgment comes, what does Jesus say?

    Matthew 7:21-23...
    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (NIV)

    Those who acknowledge Jesus as their “Lord” seem to have good reason to believe that they are accepted as his disciples....and yet what is his response to them? Why does he say “I never knew you” and call them “evildoers”? Do you think that they are well and truly deceived? What does “never” mean? It means that there was never a time when he recognised them as his disciples.....and these are “many”.

    Now, what if these “many” were also responsible for correctly translating the Bible? Two important things lead to correct understanding of the scriptures.....accurate translation, and accurate interpretation. Translating God’s word from the original languages is a huge responsibility and it takes very little to change the meaning of an entire verse.

    One that comes to mind is so small in fact, that it is barely noticeable.....Luke 23:39-43...
    “One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!” But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. ” Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (NIV)

    Do you see the comma? There is no punctuation in Greek, so a comma is placed to help with the phrasing in English. But is that where the comma belongs? Read the last verse again, but place the comma after the word “today” and see how that changes the whole meaning. You have to understand what the rest of the Bible says in order to see the plain truth. Jesus did not go to heaven that day. He was dead in a tomb for three days after his execution and remained here on earth for 40 days before his ascension.

    The thief was not promised “heaven” but “paradise”.....is paradise heaven? Where was the first paradise? What was Jesus really promising this unrighteous man? Wasn’t he guaranteeing him a resurrection here on earth? (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:2-4)

    So where does the comma belong? According to what the rest of the Bible teaches, it belongs where the NWT places it.....
    43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

    I believe that you grossly underestimate the one who rules this world.....1 John 5:19 actually warns that there is no part of this world that is out of his control......but you have to know his MO.

    This means that those deceived have no idea that their course is among those “many” that are traveling the broad road to destruction....it also explains why “few” are on the road to life.

    Matthew 7:13-14....
    “13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (NIV)

    We all need to understand this.
     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    They were so focused on the trinity that their 'blinded' minds could see nothing else. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
     
  11. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    I don't know what your post has to do with a deliberate mistranslation, offered by a cult group.

    I will not say to Jesus, "Let me in because I prophesied and commanded demons and miracles." I will say, "Thank you for dying and rising for my sin!"

    It is heresy to say the best most Christians can hope for is a paradise on Earth as illustrated in Watchtower materials. I'm grateful to JW's who shared with me before I ultimately became a Christian, and they helped point me to Jesus's Kingdom and Jewishness, however, it is a heresy to say things we can imagine are the best the Heavenly offers. If only 144,000 make it, why does God promise to seat us on His throne in Revelation?
     
  12. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Thousands of translators, including NAS translators (who had Mormons and JWs on their translation teams, specifically to avoid their charges of biases), for MILLENNIA, in HUNDREDS of languages, ALL were SO biased that they deliberately mistranslated not only John 1 but dozens of verses and passages describing Jesus as God?

    Thousands of translators, DESPERATE to get God's Word out to the whole world, to help usher His Return to us, were BLIND, because when they faith was [in the past] delivered (Jude) they delivered falsehoods about Jesus being God?

    I'm a JEW, and could hardly trust Jesus without being ASSURED He is God, first!
     
  13. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    perhaps contemplate that Jesus is not God but a agent of God

    agent
    [ˈājənt]

    1: one that acts or exerts power

    2a: something that produces or is capable of producing an effect : an active or efficient causeEducation proved to be an agent of change in the community.
    b: a chemically, physically, or biologically active principlean oxidizing agent

    3: a means or instrument by which a guiding intelligence achieves a result

    4: one who is authorized to act for or in the place of another: such as
    a: a representative,
    emissary, or official of a governmentcrown agentfederal agent
    b: one engaged in undercover activities (such as espionage) : SPYa secret agent
    c: a business representative (as of an athlete or entertainer)a theatrical agent

    5: a computer application designed to automate certain tasks (such as gathering information online)

    when you consider that Jesus was sent ,by God , to do things for God with authority. its easy to understand that Jesus in not God but speaks for God with authority. in effect making Jesus sound/look like a god.
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No...not deliberately....the trinity had been suggested long ago by men who wanted to make Christianity into something of their own making, just as happened in Judaism before it....."traditions of men" replaced scripture. It was through many controversies that it was finally adopted by the Catholic church.....but initially it was only a 'binary' with a fusion of God and Jesus as one God.....the third party wasn't invited until later......
    Did Israel ever worship a triune God?

    It was foretold by Jesus and the apostles that what happened in Judaism would happen again in Christianity, and for the same reasons. This apostasy was a counterfeit form of the original....one that was designed to fool people into accepting that fake and rejecting the truth. Did you fall for it?

    There is not one single verse in the Bible that has Jesus telling his disciples that he is God....not one. Not one verse where Yahweh calls Jesus God.....or that calls the holy spirit "God".

    Did you jump out of the frying pan and into the fire? As a Jew, the trinity should have raised alarm bells for you....it is blasphemy to place another being as "god" or on equal footing with the Father. Fusing them together did not create the God of Abraham.....it created a different "god" altogether....one Abraham would never have acknowledged.

    How many of the Jews rescued from Egypt made it into the Promised Land? Please think about where you came from and where you think you are going......
     
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  15. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    No, a simple reading of EITHER testament, with the OT predating the "trinity" word by centuries, even 1,000 years or more, teaches the tri-unity of God.
     
  16. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    The Bible in both testaments places the Son above an agent. He is higher than angels, higher then men (Hebrews), eternal and unchanging (Hebrews) and has power over Satan and all lesser beings.

    What do you call an agent who isn't human or angelic and has power subordinate to the Father only, who has all of the Holy Spirit, heals (today) and has all power?
     
  17. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    the nwths defines him as the chief agent . your problem solved
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Show me the Hebrew and Greek scriptures that do this....perhaps “a simple reading” is the problem...? :shrug:
    Please post some of them, and we can all examine them a little more closely.....otherwise your claims are without foundation.

    Can I ask how a Jew ever utters the Shema and gets three gods in one head....? (Deuteronomy 6:4) Did Abraham worship a triune deity?

    Three separate 'gods' forced into one "godhead" (a word that is not found in scripture) and calling them "one God" is not the Bible's description of Yahweh.....three different personalities residing in one entity, who can be in three different places at once, and speak independently of each other, is not monotheism. If it was, and we are made in God's image, then multiple personality disorder would not be a "disorder".
    Since when are Father and son ever the same person?

    Jesus was a servant of his God (Acts 3:13, 26) as are all of God's intelligent creation. We are all assigned our role in his service and when we know our place and keep it, everything works well, but when intelligent creatures step outside of their assignment, then we have chaos. Satan was the first, but sadly not the last to do that, and we are living in the chaos that resulted from his defection......soon though, according to scripture, all rebels (goats and their leader) will be put out of the way, (Matthew 25:31-33, 46) and things will go back to the way that God first intended when he placed mankind on this planet all those millenniums ago. (Revelation 21:2-4) That is what I look forward to.....not some 'airy fairy' notion of going to heaven without understanding why that was never in God's plans for the human race originally.

    Those bound for heaven have a role already outlined. They will be "kings and priests" but their subjects are not in heaven because there are no sinners in heaven who need priests and kings do not rule one another. God's promise is to be with humans.....(Revelation 20:6)There are no humans in heaven.

    Again, I will ask you to consider how many of the Jews rescued from Egypt made it into the Promised Land? Only two....and Moses was not one of them. Please think about where you came from and where you think you are going......
     
  19. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    The implication of John chapters 1 through 3 is they are at the beginning of a new creation -- the beginning of the church. Paul refers to a new creation in his letters, possibly in reference to this. John says the Word is in the beginning, and within the word is the light, and then in chapter three he says that light is breaking upon the world. Either he has pulled Genesis 1 forward into the year 33AD, or he's saying Jesus ministry is the light of a new creation.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    What does this mean..."a new creation"?

    What did these apostles think was going to happen to them? They knew that they had been chosen to go to heaven but what did Paul say about them being "a new creation"? What did it involve?

    The beginning of what? John said that the Word was "with God" "in the beginning"......yet God had no beginning.

    Jesus was "the light of the world" because the world was "in darkness" without him.

    John 8:12...
    "Then Jesus spoke again to them, saying: “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.”

    How did the world get to be in darkness? How is that darkness taken away?

    What is "the light" that Jesus' disciples will possess?
     
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