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Featured Understanding John 1:1

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by filthyrottendirty, Mar 16, 2021.

  1. filthyrottendirty

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    Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

    En arche ēn ho Logos, kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon, kai Theos ēn o Logos. – John 1:1 (Greek text)

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. – John 1:1 (NWT)

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. – John 1:1 (KJV)

    (Some translations read "the Word was divine.")

    “The beginning” refers to the time when God began his creative work and produced the Word. Thereafter, the Word was used by God in the creation of all other things. (John 1:2, 3) The Bible states that Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation” and that “by means of him all other things were created. Colossians 1:15, 16. -JW.org

    Many scholars identify "logos" with God’s wisdom and reason. The logos is the expression of God, and is His communication of Himself, just as a “word” is an outward expression of a person’s thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son, and thus it is perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the “Word.” Jesus is an outward expression of God’s reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason, we call revelation “a word from God” and the Bible “the Word of God.”

    If we understand that the logos is God’s expression—His plan, purposes, reason and wisdom, it is clear that they were indeed with Him “in the beginning.” Scripture says that God’s wisdom was “from the beginning” (Prov. 8:23). It was very common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. No ancient Jew reading Proverbs would think that God’s wisdom was a separate person, even though it is portrayed as one in Proverbs chapter 8. “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion."

    The Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”). The Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures were being translated into Sahidic Coptic (an ancient Egyptian language) during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on Greek manuscripts which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant versions. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of that time, did not have an indefinite article, Sahidic Coptic does.

    ϨΝ ΤЄϨΟΥЄΙΤЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝϬΙ ΠϢΑϪЄ
    ΑΥШ ΠϢΑϪЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝΝΑϨΡΜ ΠΝΟΥΤЄ ΑΥШ ΝЄΥΝΟΥΤΕ ΠЄ ΠϢΑϪЄ
    John 1:1 (Sahidic Coptic text)

    Transliteration:
    Hn te.houeite ne.f.shoop ngi p.shaje
    Auw p.shaje ne.f.shoop n.nahrm p.noute Auw ne.u.noute pe p.shaje

    Literal English translation: In the beginning existed the word. And the word existed in the presence of God. And a god was the word.

    The Coptic translation says ne.u.noute pe p.Saje: "the Word was a god (or, divine)," not "the Word was God." The Coptic language has both indefinite and definite articles in its grammatical structure. If the Sahidic Coptic translators held the doctrine that "the Word was God," or if the Coptic translators understood the Greek text to say "the Word was God," the Coptic language had the grammatical tools to say so. But they did not write "the Word was God." They wrote "the Word was a god."

    Egypt was conquered by Alexander the Great in 332 BCE and the country was subsequently Hellenized. Greek influence had been in Egypt for some 500 years by the time those translators began their work. Likely made well before Nicea (325 CE), the Coptic text tells us how early translators interpreted John 1:1, apart from the influence of later dogma and church tradition. The Sahidic Coptic version, the earliest translation of the Greek originals into a language that contained the indefinite article, used that indefinite article at John 1:1: “the Word was a god.”

    The NWT of John 1:1 is said to be an incorrect translation. Yet, in rendering John 1:1 from Greek into their own native language, the Coptic scribes came to the same understanding 1,700 years ago.
     
    #1 filthyrottendirty, Mar 16, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2021
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  2. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    So you can see in part why the Jews also rejected Jesus as the divine, preexistent Son of God who came down from heaven to reveal the Father to mankind in greater detail. They were offended by his claims about himself having heard him clearly in the language he spoke.
     
  3. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    John 1:1 Commentaries: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:1, Using the New World Translation to Refute JW Teaching
     
  4. filthyrottendirty

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  5. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    It is also written that Jesus His Pre-Eminence is co-existing and co-eternal. Therefore, HE has no beginning and no end. So how was HE produced?
     
  6. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    We know that the Father (God) is spirit and that He also has spirit which proceeds from Himself. In other words, God can be in heaven and also anywhere else by His spirit. God does not have to leave His location in order to put His spirit upon another. When God puts His spirit upon another, unnatural things become possible.
    Because God has such a powerful spirit, He can create the heaven and the earth and all things therein.

    Now, suppose God wanted to give of His spirit fully to His son. A full measure of it without regard to time or space.

    If He did, then whatever could be attributed to God (all of creation) could also be attributed to His son. And God could call his name "The Word of God".
     
  7. Hermit Philosopher

    Hermit Philosopher Selflessly here for you

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    I have always seen the “Word” as a code. Like a pattern-derived equation, structuring chaos and setting limits for what can and cannot be [-come].

    I think of God as a scientist and of the “Word” as the basis for manifested reality; the rule behind the laws of physics (of which Man comprehends four).

    I think that all that is possible within the “Word”, must manifest/occur before it is assessed (Judgement) and that much will thereafter be erased, but that some will remain in the “Book of Life”. And then, I think that the “Word” itself will be improved quite a bit (by God).


    Humbly
    Hermit
     
  8. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    Interesting reply. It is coded, but not exactly as you said. Jesus His Pre-Eminence spoke of the law, and the Prophets.

    HE said: Whatsoever ye would that men do to you, do so to them, for that is the Law and the Prophets.
    HE also said: I did not come to abolish the law and the Prophets and the Prophets, but to fulfil:

    What this means; though it was coded; is that it is by the Law and the Prophets where the seat of justice is. Which simply means that the Law and the Prophets are the consitution of the kingdom; the kingdom authority.

    Thus Moses, the Law, and Elijah the Prophet, came to meet with Jesus His Pre-Eminence on the mountain of olives. Jesus HIs Pre-Eminence took three apostles with HIM, james, Peter and John, which was a type of baptizm into those roles.

    James the Apostle teachings are law based.
    John the Beloved is Prophetic.

    So what about Peter the Apostle?

    Moses the Law, Jesus His Pre-Eminence (the Word), and Elijah the Prophet (EL-YAH). This is the kingdom authority.

    The Word is pointing to the person who the people should listen too.

    This is my beloved Son, Hear ye HIM.

    That the person personfies themselves as the message they are preaching. Jesus His Pre-Eminence personified HIMSELF as HIS message:

    I am the bread of life: your fathers ate Manna and are dead, I am the bread of life that cometh down from heaven: he that eats of this bread shall never die but live forever.

    For example:
    In the days of Moses, it was Moses, Aaron, and Miriam... Aaron was the Word, because he was the high priest who installed the system of sacrifice; and this is a system that the jews upheld zealously.

    In the day of the Apostles it was: Apostle Peter, the leader of the church; who was given the keys to the kingdom.

    Overall, the heads of the three tabernacles are: Moses, Jesus His Pre-Eminence, and Elijah..

    But what John the Beloved is saying here, is that Jesus His Pre-Eminence, who is the Word, is GOD. Simple.
     
    #8 Yahcubs777, Mar 16, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2021
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  9. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Jesus doesn't have to be "preexistent Son of God" in order to come down from heaven. All Jesus has to do is claim that of himself he can do nothing and that it is the Father that does the works.
    So, how is that the Father is the one doing the works?
    Seems it is the Father who came down from heaven by His spirit that proceeds from Himself and which was upon Jesus.
     
  10. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    If Jesus was simply an idea in Gods mind and not a separate preexisting personality reality, did he return to heaven as an idea and not a person?
     
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  11. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Because God delegates powers and authority to his Sons in heaven as well as a host of other celestial beings.

    Did Gabriel come down from heaven? What about the 3 celestial beings who met with Abraham at the Oaks of Mamre?
     
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  12. filthyrottendirty

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    That isn't written anywhere.
     
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  13. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Loyal Sons of God always give glory to the Father in humble submission. The Son of God in Jesus came down from heaven and lived a God revealing life all while subject to the Will of the Father. The Sons example is how we are supposed to live.
     
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  14. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    According to the Scripture, he ascended to the right hand of God with a body that is no longer subject to death. Paul says , "death no longer has dominion over him".
    And in the resurrection we shall see him as he is and be like him. In the likeness of his resurrection. Paul refers to them as having a spiritual body as opposed to the body of death or mortal body we now have.
     
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  15. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    According to scripture he had Glory with the Father in the eternal past and created the world. Was he simply an idea without a body?
     
  16. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    God's angels are immortal beings. They don't die. Jesus said that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father in heaven.

    God's holy angels are not bound to either heaven or earth. They can travel anywhere God sends them.
     
  17. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    It is written in many places.
     
  18. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    If every eye that sees GOD dies, then Angels have never seen GOD
     
  19. filthyrottendirty

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    If a man should see God he would die because sinful, fallen man cannot exist in the presence of God. That doesn't apply to angels.
     
  20. filthyrottendirty

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    Show me one place where it is written
     
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