Understanding Cosmology (Post 1)

[Meow Mix]

@Meow Mix, this is under science and religion? They should have a category called "science" alone.

Edit: There is a category called science and technology, I suggest to the mods to move this there

I've read some of the posts here early on. Some I can understand, some not. @JoshuaTree seems to have some Physics understanding beyond what I have, let alone you.

I'm late to this series, I think I'll have to let it go! There are already 6 groups of twenty here, and there are seven such threads. Thanks, anyway.

I posted it in Science and Religion because it's leading up to understanding Big Bang cosmology, about which there are often many posts and questions related to religious debates. This way the entire series can be referred to when the Big Bang comes up in such conversations. However I guess it doesn't really matter where it lives as long as people are able to point people with questions to it.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Meow Mix, I would like to ask a couple questions about the big bang if I may?
Is it possible that this is not the only universe, iow there could be a multiverse?
Wrt this universe, if it came into existence from nothing, ie spacelessness and timelessness, is there a reciprocity in play that indicates that all that exists at the moment will ultimately disappear from existence, or is it a one way phenomenon?

 

[Meow Mix]

Meow Mix, I would like to ask a couple questions about the big bang if I may?
Is it possible that this is not the only universe, iow there could be a multiverse?
Wrt this universe, if it came into existence from nothing, ie spacelessness and timelessness, is there a reciprocity in play that indicates that all that exists at the moment will ultimately disappear from existence, or is it a one way phenomena?

Caught me as I’m heading to bed, and I’ve got some things going on for the weekend. Happy to answer Sunday or Monday though!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Caught me as I’m heading to bed, and I’ve got some things going on for the weekend. Happy to answer Sunday or Monday though!

Sweet dreams Meow Mix, whenever you have the time and the inclination is fine.

 

[joelr]

That's not how this works, though. You can't just imagine a vague idea and just kind of "go with it."

He does not work with any science equations. In a debate from long ago this was said at some point.

 

[joelr]

Yes, I can see it´s very frustrating, but it works if you have an open mind and tries to look at things in different way but the consensus way.

No. Open mind and "different" don't change the fact that you need to be specific when asked.

I know you were - but I´m takling of different gravitational motions which logically cannot be explained by one law. (I hope you are aware that Newtons gravitational celestial laws of motions was contradicted in galaxies and totally discarded by Einstein?)

Einstein refined Newtons law.

What different gravitational motions do you feel cannot be explained by one law?

 

[paarsurrey]

What is a sticky thread, please?

Regards

 

[Meow Mix]

What is a sticky thread, please?

Regards

Sticky just means it will show in a separate section in the top rather than being scrolled out of the front page. It's usually done for posts that would be referenced or used a lot so you don't have to dig through past pages to find a post.

 

[Meow Mix]

Meow Mix, I would like to ask a couple questions about the big bang if I may?
Is it possible that this is not the only universe, iow there could be a multiverse?
Wrt this universe, if it came into existence from nothing, ie spacelessness and timelessness, is there a reciprocity in play that indicates that all that exists at the moment will ultimately disappear from existence, or is it a one way phenomenon?

@ben d sorry for the loooong delay on this.

It's not only possible that there are other universes (if we understand "universe" not to mean "everything that exists" but rather "the largest scale structure the visible universe is connected to"), but probable if inflationary cosmology is correct. Inflation is well-evidenced and answers a lot of sticky problems like "why are inhomogeneities (e.g., huge patches with the same anomalous temperature compared to the mean) in the CMB so far apart that they couldn't possibly be causally related" and "where are the magnetic monopoles" and "why is the universe so flat."

If inflation is true, then what we call the visible universe is just one bubble where inflation decayed: inflation would be ongoing elsewhere, quickly dominating, and spontaneously decay into other bubbles which would be other universes.

For the next question, I have to nitpick "if it came into existence from nothing:" that isn't suggested by Big Bang cosmology. The absence of time and the universe that we see is not the same thing as "nothing," for instance as far as we know there could have still been fields (such as in the eternal inflation scenario), and things like that could have existed forever as far as we know. Big Bang is "creation ex nihilo" agnostic in other words.

However we can speculate about whether there will be a time in the future where pre-BB conditions might be reached again: the answer is "boy is this question hard to answer in English," and by that I mean I have to use terms like "future" where time may have no meaning and "here" where space may have no meaning, but I shall do so colloquially anyway.

Yes, it's possible that the future of the universe here (our bubble) might re-attain pre-BB conditions according to Penrose, but I wouldn't say that this has a scientific consensus behind it. His idea is essentially that in the very distant future, when a bunch of speculative stuff has happened like protons being unstable and have decayed, after a hypothetical period where all that exists when the last black holes have decayed would be a world of positronium, that this positronium too would eventually meet its end with self-annihilation, leaving only photons (or more technically, only particles with no rest mass).

For relativistic reasons, Penrose argues that at this point, space and time lose all meaning, and very distant photons will be colocated because the space between them would have no meaning, and likewise with time (which is defined by the entropic gradient). Now, I'm not on Roger Penrose's level (I wish, I am but a grad student), so I'll just repeat that there's definitely not a concensus on his idea; though the man himself is a serious and respected theorist. So, we will have to see whether anyone else runs with such ideas.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

@ben d sorry for the loooong delay on this.

It's not only possible that there are other universes (if we understand "universe" not to mean "everything that exists" but rather "the largest scale structure the visible universe is connected to"), but probable if inflationary cosmology is correct. Inflation is well-evidenced and answers a lot of sticky problems like "why are inhomogeneities (e.g., huge patches with the same anomalous temperature compared to the mean) in the CMB so far apart that they couldn't possibly be causally related" and "where are the magnetic monopoles" and "why is the universe so flat."

If inflation is true, then what we call the visible universe is just one bubble where inflation decayed: inflation would be ongoing elsewhere, quickly dominating, and spontaneously decay into other bubbles which would be other universes.

For the next question, I have to nitpick "if it came into existence from nothing:" that isn't suggested by Big Bang cosmology. The absence of time and the universe that we see is not the same thing as "nothing," for instance as far as we know there could have still been fields (such as in the eternal inflation scenario), and things like that could have existed forever as far as we know. Big Bang is "creation ex nihilo" agnostic in other words.

However we can speculate about whether there will be a time in the future where pre-BB conditions might be reached again: the answer is "boy is this question hard to answer in English," and by that I mean I have to use terms like "future" where time may have no meaning and "here" where space may have no meaning, but I shall do so colloquially anyway.

Yes, it's possible that the future of the universe here (our bubble) might re-attain pre-BB conditions according to Penrose, but I wouldn't say that this has a scientific consensus behind it. His idea is essentially that in the very distant future, when a bunch of speculative stuff has happened like protons being unstable and have decayed, after a hypothetical period where all that exists when the last black holes have decayed would be a world of positronium, that this positronium too would eventually meet its end with self-annihilation, leaving only photons (or more technically, only particles with no rest mass).

For relativistic reasons, Penrose argues that at this point, space and time lose all meaning, and very distant photons will be colocated because the space between them would have no meaning, and likewise with time (which is defined by the entropic gradient). Now, I'm not on Roger Penrose's level (I wish, I am but a grad student), so I'll just repeat that there's definitely not a concensus on his idea; though the man himself is a serious and respected theorist. So, we will have to see whether anyone else runs with such ideas.

Well Meow Mix, you may be a grad student now, but you really are a rising star imho, so keep being that humble soul that you are. Thank you very much for your response, it was worth waiting for.

 

[paarsurrey]

Understanding Cosmology

There are certain aspects of understanding nature or Work-of-Allah(God). one of it is "Understanding Cosmology" and it comes under the domain of Science, and it is beneficial for our "day to day" knowledge and it is good, please. Right?
Naturally, this "day to day" requirement will definitely come to an end someday with our death, and then starts our "Afterlife", please. Right?

Regards

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Understanding Cosmology

There are certain aspects of understanding nature or Work-of-Allah(God). one of it is "Understanding Cosmology" and it comes under the domain of Science, and it is beneficial for our "day to day" knowledge and it is good, please. Right?
Naturally, this "day to day" requirement will definitely come to an end someday with our death, and then starts our "Afterlife", please. Right?

Regards

And then there is this....

 

[paarsurrey]

Understanding Cosmology
There are certain aspects of understanding nature or Work-of-Allah(God). one of it is "Understanding Cosmology" and it comes under the domain of Science, and it is beneficial for our "day to day" knowledge and it is good, please. Right?
Naturally, this "day to day" requirement will definitely come to an end someday with our death, and then starts our "Afterlife", please. Right?
Regards

This aspect of cosmology draws our attention to Allah(G-d)- the Creator, please:
Quran 3:191
اِنَّ فِیۡ خَلۡقِ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ الۡاَرۡضِ وَ اخۡتِلَافِ الَّیۡلِ وَ النَّہَارِ لَاٰیٰتٍ لِّاُولِی الۡاَلۡبَابِ ﴿۱۹۱﴾ۚۙ
In the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of the night and the day there are indeed Signs for men of understanding;
3:192
الَّذِیۡنَ یَذۡکُرُوۡنَ اللّٰہَ قِیٰمًا وَّ قُعُوۡدًا وَّ عَلٰی جُنُوۡبِہِمۡ وَ یَتَفَکَّرُوۡنَ فِیۡ خَلۡقِ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ الۡاَرۡضِ ۚ رَبَّنَا مَا خَلَقۡتَ ہٰذَا بَاطِلًا ۚ سُبۡحٰنَکَ فَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ ﴿۱۹۲﴾
Those who remember Allah while standing, sitting, and lying on their sides, and ponder over the creation of the heavens and the earth: “Our Lord, Thou hast not created this in vain; nay, Holy art Thou; save us, then, from the punishment of the Fire.
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
Right?

Regards

 

[Audie]

So if a tree falls in the forest?

Lets stay on topic

 

[Audie]

This aspect of cosmology draws our attention to Allah(G-d)- the Creator, please:
Quran 3:191
اِنَّ فِیۡ خَلۡقِ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ الۡاَرۡضِ وَ اخۡتِلَافِ الَّیۡلِ وَ النَّہَارِ لَاٰیٰتٍ لِّاُولِی الۡاَلۡبَابِ ﴿۱۹۱﴾ۚۙ
In the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of the night and the day there are indeed Signs for men of understanding;
3:192
الَّذِیۡنَ یَذۡکُرُوۡنَ اللّٰہَ قِیٰمًا وَّ قُعُوۡدًا وَّ عَلٰی جُنُوۡبِہِمۡ وَ یَتَفَکَّرُوۡنَ فِیۡ خَلۡقِ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ الۡاَرۡضِ ۚ رَبَّنَا مَا خَلَقۡتَ ہٰذَا بَاطِلًا ۚ سُبۡحٰنَکَ فَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ ﴿۱۹۲﴾
Those who remember Allah while standing, sitting, and lying on their sides, and ponder over the creation of the heavens and the earth: “Our Lord, Thou hast not created this in vain; nay, Holy art Thou; save us, then, from the punishment of the Fire.
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
Right?

Regards

Stay on topic or stay out?

 

[Audie]

Understanding Cosmology

There are certain aspects of understanding nature or Work-of-Allah(God). one of it is "Understanding Cosmology" and it comes under the domain of Science, and it is beneficial for our "day to day" knowledge and it is good, please. Right?
Naturally, this "day to day" requirement will definitely come to an end someday with our death, and then starts our "Afterlife", please. Right?

Regards

Actually there is no practical use at all for cosmology
anc, still far far less to vague notions about some " afterlife".