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Featured Uncreated and Formed Things

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Apr 22, 2022.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    how can an eternal unformed thing create temporal forms?
     
  2. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    through restraint
     
  3. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Because it's alive.
     
  4. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Magic!
     
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  5. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    so the universe is created by magic? the universe creates forms but itself isn't finished forming is it?

    the only thing permanent is impermanence?
     
  6. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    It can't, AFAICT.
     
  7. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    the universe isn't eternal and doesn't form things?
     
  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    It doesn't seem to be.

    Depends what you mean by "form things."
     
  9. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    seems?


    things that arise from something else. like chemical compounds, like atoms, like humans.

    the things that arise in the universe as form and different/contrasted to some other form, having a structure that appears different from some other structure but both exist and were formed in the universe.
     
  10. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    I mean that all signs point to the universe having a beginning a finite amount of time in the past and an end a finite amount of time in the future, but the laws of physics break down within Planck Time of the Big Bang, so there's ~10^-44 s that's unaccounted for.

    Ah - I'd say then that the universe is the medium in which things are formed. I don't think I'd say that the universe "forms things" as if it's by the universe's own volition.
     
  11. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    I don't see your point.
    The religious position is that an eternal, unformed being created the formed universe. How it did this is not explained. "By His will/breath/finger" is neither an explanation nor a mechanism. We're left with action or creation without mechanism, ie: magic.
     
  12. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    i wasn't speaking of religious per se. that is why the question was posed as it was.

    so the universe was created magically?
     
  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    The universe probably was not created magically. We do not have any evidence that indicates that. All of the evidence that we have points to a natural formation. No creation, no creator, no intent. That bothers some people.

    Do you know of any evidence that it was created by magic?
     
  14. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    Any way He pleases, because He is infinite and omnipotent. The Bible says He "spoke" creation into existence, along with Christ's special role in the creation, so there may be a clue there. Otherwise, we don't know the specifics.
     
  15. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    All the structure we see in nature seems to be the natural consequence of the operation of what we often call the "laws" of nature, by which we mean certain orderly principles*, governing the way things interact.

    Einstein came close to saying that he thought this underlying order, governing the behaviour of elements of nature, is what we mean when we speak of "God". Nobody knows why there should be such order: it just is.


    *The term "laws" is actually a bit suspect since ( a ) most of the "laws" are man-made models to account for the way we see the universe behave and ( b ), no doubt because of this limitation, many of the these "laws" are not always or completely followed.
     
  16. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Perhaps the artist has their medium; A creative force that works on its own without need of interfering or tinkering. A self evolving creative force that is non living but autonomous intelligence.
     
  17. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    i didn't say it was magic, the other poster did. naturally doesn't mean it wasn't created from something because in nature, everything is created from something.

    does that bother you?


    the universe creates things, or forms, does it create forms/things from something outside itself? from nothing? from?
     
  18. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    does the universe create from itself or from something outside of itself?
     
  19. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    I'm a Christian, so I believe God created the universe.
     
  20. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    that is probably the better answer. the only Absolute is that there are no absolutes.


    so the underlying issue that everyone can seem to agree on, is ...............is the universe conscious? agree or disagree?
     
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