"Unaware of First Amendment, 67% of GOP Say Flag Burners Should Lose Citizenship"

[Valjean]

It's still imbecilic when you consider what the flag is supposed to symbolize.

Attacking a symbol is a time honored way of harmlessly focusing attention on discrepancies between ideals and actions, on the principles symbolized vs reality.

NB: "Harmlessly" -- Not shooting, not rioting, not breaking or assaulting.

 

[Valjean]

So, people who do not agree with the Constitution of the U.S. are so upset by someone burning a flag that they want them stripped of their citizenship? That makes no sense at all. If burning a flag is so terrible, why isn't disagreeing with the laws and principals set forth in the Constitution protecting such an act, equally bad? After all the flag burners are doing it because they disagree with the the policies of the government the flag represents, same as the ones who disagree with the constitution for letting them do it. Seems like this is the black pot condemning the black kettle for being black.

The "people who do not agree with the constitution of the U.S" are not aware their attitudes are in conflict with the constitution. They're tribalists; throwbacks. What they feel trumps what they think.

A thing is more valuable than its symbol, yet, curiously, symbols are more valued by the general public than the principles symbolized. Flag burners are supporting the principles symbolized by the flag.

The public is an ***.

 

[Valjean]

I will make this easy to understand. We have a thing called PC. PC is a list of words and phrases that bother some people enough, where free speech is suspended.

Isn't PC just consideration for the principles, values and sentiments of others?

Flag burning pushes the same buttons in another group of people. Both PC and flag burning should be banned, or neither should be banned. Currently, only people on the right are required to be the adults in the room. While those who swing left get to be the mentally handicapped with PC acting as medicine.

What does this mean, "the adults in the room?" Realists are the adults, and idealists, children? Kindness and consideration are impractical, while toughness and repression are lauded?

It seems to me it's the idealists who've always advanced human civilization, and the tribalists who've retarded it.

 

[Valjean]

It it only an opinion that such a ban is violating the principles it symbolizes. Isn’t it one of its principles that they could interpret what it symbolizes differently?

Good point. Idealism and consideration for principles is a new thing. Many are still tribal, with narrow moral focus and brains wired for tribalism rather than universal principles of fairness, equality and human rights.

 

[Valjean]

How long did you serve?

An ad-hom attack? Seriously?
Don't ignore history. America is not the protector of peace and freedom in the world. America does not promote democracy and human rights. Democracy threatens corporate interests.
"The business of America is business." -- Calvin Coolidge.

America has always been imperialistic; has always devoted itself to the interests of the industrialists and "owners" -- Roosevelt's "economic royalists"

The American military has been primarily deployed to acquire and defend corporate market interests, not freedom and democracy. Soldiers are corporate employees [read: dupes], not defenders of our freedom.

America's imperialism creates resentment -- and enemies. America responds by creating a police-surveillance state; restricting the rights and freedoms of its citizens, suppressing dissent, and diverting funds from healthcare, education, infrastructure and social welfare to fund its worldwide military adventurism, covert political machinations, and domestic propaganda.

 

[BSM1]

An ad-hom attack? Seriously?
Don't ignore history. America is not the protector of peace and freedom in the world. America does not promote democracy and human rights. Democracy threatens corporate interests.
"The business of America is business." -- Calvin Coolidge.

America has always been imperialistic; has always devoted itself to the interests of the industrialists and "owners" -- Roosevelt's "economic royalists"

The American military has been primarily deployed to acquire and defend corporate market interests, not freedom and democracy. Soldiers are corporate employees [read: dupes], not defenders of our freedom.

America's imperialism creates resentment -- and enemies. America responds by creating a police-surveillance state; restricting the rights and freedoms of its citizens, suppressing dissent, and diverting funds from healthcare, education, infrastructure and social welfare to fund its worldwide military adventurism, covert political machinations, and domestic propaganda.

Uh-huh....thought so.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Uh-huh....thought so.

And yet when someone who DID serve commented, all you did was snark. Could it be you aren't participating in the thread in good faith?

 

[BSM1]

And yet when someone who DID serve commented, all you did was snark. Could it be you aren't participating in the thread in good faith?

Wasn't talking to everyone.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Wasn't talking to everyone.

You understand this is a public discussion forum, right?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Fragile patriotism: Right-wing snowflakes, triggered by criticism

 

[Valjean]

Uh-huh....thought so.

You think I'm wrong? Counter my facts.

 

[Shaul]

Flag idolatry/fetishism is weeiirrd.

What you call idolatry and fetishism others call simply respect and decency.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

What you call idolatry and fetishism others call simply respect and decency.

Yes. When the fact that their idolatry and fetishism being called out triggers their cognitive dissonance and they need an ad hoc rationalisation. There's treating the flag with respect, then there's weird idolatry of it. Americans looked at that line and said "hold my beer..." the funny thing is you're so unaware of it, it being so normalised with pseudo religious flag rituals imposed on children from a young age, and the brittle patriots among you get all butthurt and defensive when it's commented on.

 

[Revoltingest]

An ad-hom attack? Seriously?
Don't ignore history. America is not the protector of peace and freedom in the world. America does not promote democracy and human rights. Democracy threatens corporate interests.
"The business of America is business." -- Calvin Coolidge.

I agree that democracy threatens corporate interests.
I'd go further to say that it also threatens economic liberties
in general, & the lives & security of foreign countries.
But I don't have a better alternative. So we live with the threats.

America has always been imperialistic; has always devoted itself to the interests of the industrialists and "owners" -- Roosevelt's "economic royalists"

The American military has been primarily deployed to acquire and defend corporate market interests, not freedom and democracy. Soldiers are corporate employees [read: dupes], not defenders of our freedom.

That case could be made over a half a century ago,
but you'd have to provide an argument for subsequent
foreign adventurism.

America's imperialism creates resentment -- and enemies. America responds by creating a police-surveillance state; restricting the rights and freedoms of its citizens, suppressing dissent, and diverting funds from healthcare, education, infrastructure and social welfare to fund its worldwide military adventurism, covert political machinations, and domestic propaganda.

The voters demand war, & so money is diverted to that.

 

[Thief]

nowadays you can be fired for religious symbol displays
or speaking a holiday greeting the next guy can't relate to

burn the flag?.....lose your job?

 

[Revoltingest]

nowadays you can be fired for religious symbol displays
or speaking a holiday greeting the next guy can't relate to

burn the flag?.....lose your job?

160 days until....
Happy Festivus!

 

[Valjean]

What you call idolatry and fetishism others call simply respect and decency.

I'm sure they do, and I'll bet their assessment is more emotional than thought-out, as well.
Respect should be reserved for principles, not symbols, and decency lies in adhering to those principles.

 

[Father Heathen]

What you call idolatry and fetishism others call simply respect and decency.

Deifying an object and demanding compulsory prostration goes far beyond respect and decency.

 

[Valjean]

I agree that democracy threatens corporate interests.
I'd go further to say that it also threatens economic liberties
in general, & the lives & security of foreign countries.
But I don't have a better alternative. So we live with the threats.

That case could be made over a half a century ago,
but you'd have to provide an argument for subsequent
foreign adventurism.

The voters demand war, & so money is diverted to that.

A better alternative might be a strong and functional UN. It's purpose, after all, is to prevent war and promote peaceful co-operation among nations. Alas, America isn't about to relinquish it's place as world hegemon, no matter the cost. Its fall won't be gentle.

Foreign adventurism in the last half century? You could write a book...!
Could you narrow the focus, pick a decade?

The industrialists demand war, the politicians manufacture a cause, the media fan the flames, the people are duped.

 

[We Never Know]

.


"67% of Republicans say that people who burn the U.S. flag should be stripped of their citizenship, according to a new survey from YouGov.

The people who are obsessed with the Second Amendment have no clue there’s one that comes before it.

Sadly, 24% of Democrats said the same thing,* but at least a majority of them (64%) understand that you don’t have to love speech in order to respect freedom of it. But still! A whole bunch of Americans think freedom of speech — even speech that is symbolic and not meant to harm other people — ought to have its limits.

The survey comes weeks after Donald Trump called for a ban on flag burning, contrary to American law and Supreme Court precedent.

As I said at the time, we should be far more disturbed by a president who dry humps the American flag while his administration locks kids in cages than a citizen who destroys the flag in the hopes of drawing attention to a particular problem.

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* IOW, 180% more Republicans than Democrats are ignorant of the First Amendment, and say " Flag Burners Should Lose Citizenship."

Surprising? Of course not.

.

IMO, anyone in the U.S. who burns the American flag should leave the country and anyone outside the U.S. that burns the American flag shouldn't try to come here. America is America, love it or hate it all you want but respect the flag that many have died for. Again, that's my opinion.