1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Ultimate Value and the signs of it in ourselves.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Link, Jan 22, 2022.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    8,077
    Ratings:
    +2,213
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    This is from years ago on another forum in a galaxy far far away (okay I might have made up the galaxy part):

    This was discussed earlier. I look at the moon, and I have subjective impression of it's size. However it's size is objectively there. There is nothing I can do about it. I would not however have subjective impression of it's size without belief that there is an objective measurement to it.

    When it comes to value of the self, the questions are:

    what is it? (1)
    how do we see it? (2)
    how do we know there is an objective value to it (if any)? (3)
    Do we have objective measurement to ourselves? (4)
    If so, how do we measure it?(5)
    If not, how does this measurement exist and get maintained ?(6)
    What role do good actions and bad actions have to do with our quality/value/rank? (7)
    What system is in place to make our value objectively increased or decreased depending on our actions, how is this even possible that we inherit actions and increase our value? (8)

    First of all, if we say our value is purely subjectively us giving ourselves value, then if someone values us less, and we value ourselves more, what is our true value? If we decide we are the most important person in the world, do we automatically become the most important person in the world?

    Do we set our value so if I want to make myself so great in my eyes, then automatically I can do this?

    Obviously, we have don't simply assign value to ourselves, but when we judge, we do so with some sort of guesstimate at our true value. We all believe there is a measurement to who we are.

    ...and that they may know their Lord encompasses everything in number. (Quran)

    Our value whatever it is, is not maintained by our perceptions. But we know it requires perception. As it requires perception, there has to be an objective perception who maintains that value.

    How do we see it? We can see that we aren't made of some sort of unique value that is totally different then a value in another being, like one human is of totally different type x value and another human being is of y value, and x and y have nothing really in common. There is something binding us. There is something in all this. That something, in the words of Imam Ali, is expressed:

    "He is in all things without being merged in them neither separate from them"

    The different hues of value, the different forms, the different relationships established through it, are all manifestations of a greater value, a link to something greater, an absolute source and basis, an eternal reality.

    As objective value cannot be arbitrary, it follows it's eternal and not something God can create out of nothing. Rather he creates through the truth of vision of himself for witnesses all things in himself.

    Naturally we can all see this. That for example, there is something extra special about love. When we value a person to the degree we love them, we are bonding with "value" and valuing in a special way, that transcends and points to something special.

    These signs of value, from honor, to courage, to compassion, to affection, are all signs of something greater. Something that these things are emerging from, but are depending to manifest.

    That in thing lives inside of us "he is all things..."but he isn't merged into us neither is he separate from us.

    The signs point in a way, in which they link to perfection, to one essence, that unites them all in a single absolute reality. They point to transcendence that doesn't lack a single possible existence or praise or beauty or glory or greatness or anything to be valued. The Ultimate Value by which all value emerges from.

    This is one of the reflections of Quran "Or are they created from nothing...", contrary to what people might think, this verse is clearly not saying that anyone believes nothing existed and then creation emerged from that. Some humans believe that universe was eternal, however this verse is addressing the polytheists, do they think their essence is created from nothing, their souls are just created by God from nothing. Rather, he created it from water of his own light, his own value, and created through his name/face/light.

    Now this explanation of the name of God/face of God the true reality of the human being, how can we know it to be true? This takes sincere reflection upon which we realize that value is not something we simply make up or biological brain assigns and maintains.

    Aside from this is how our positive or negative actions play a role in our value. As said before, we don't simply decide we are the best people on earth, and hence become the best person on earth.

    There is a value to who we are. When do actions, we inherit it. Our value is actually increased or decreased. We don't decide the degree of that measurement. Sure we may think of ourselves at that moment and have our over all judgement of ourselves, but we all realize if Hitler thinks he is righteous it doesn't make him what he values of himself automatically the true value of himself. His actions degrade him, they put on the negative scale, in - side of zero, not on the positive.

    There is something making us inherit our actions, a judge that perceives who we are, because this qualitive type measurement can only be maintained by quality type perception.

    It's not like a rock, it has weight, but it doesn't matter if we measure it or not, this is qualitive, in which it depends on perception of who we are and maintaining that and making us inherit our actions.

    And so these type of reminders, that we do believe that there is some sort living record to who we are, that it forms the true nature of value of ourselves, even if we underestimate or overestimate ourselves, there is an objective value.

    We know these to be true, and would not be able to subjectively value ourselves without belief there is an objective value.

    We see these signs in ourselves and in the horizons, pointing to something Greater. Something in which is the source of all it and unites all possible levels of value.

    The only way to measure it is to gain vision from the vision of the Creator, the closer it is to the vision of the absolute, the closer it is to making right judgement.

    However we all been given a degree of that judgement or would not be able to condemn the likes of Saddam or praise the likes of Mandela.

    When we do good acts we are in a state, there is beauty to it if good, we inherit that beauty. The truth is there infinite beauties, but there is beauty that unites all beauty, and there is souls that are upon that united beauty. It's they who manifest God the most, reminding us of God's unity thereby. But we can never grasp their value in that way God values them, because only God can see himself.

    Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq (as) said: "Surely, we have revealed it on the Night of value." (97:1) The night is Fatima al-Zahra, and the Value is God. Whoever recognizes Fatima in her rightful manner will have comprehended the Night of Value. She was named Fatima because the Creation has been prevented (fatamu) from recognizing her [fully]."
     
  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    3,943
    Ratings:
    +520
    I believe you are on to something here.

    As a believer in the God of the Bible, l would say that God is man's standard of the 'absolute'. If God is taken from the equation then so is the absolute standard, leaving us with relativism. All atheism, and polytheism, are forms of relativism.

    Only an 'absolute' (omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent) God, who is good in essence, has the authority to judge objectively. But what purpose is there in objective judgement if the standards are so high that all who face judgement are doomed to destruction?

    If all men are sinners, as l believe, then the judgement of a just and perfect God on humanity will be to highlight sin and demonstrate human frailty. The question that follows is, ls there mercy at the foot of God's throne?

    As a believer in Jesus Christ, l answer the question in the affirmative, and give thanks!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2014
    Messages:
    11,576
    Ratings:
    +6,775
    Religion:
    spiritual anti-theist : )
    I think that thinking about and discussing values is extremely important.

    That said, when I think of "values" I think in terms of things we care about. We might value things like: love, family, justice, equality, critical thinking, and so on.

    So your question about "the value of the self" seems odd to me. Why would we need such a measurement?
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  4. Sirona

    Sirona Hindu Wannabe

    Joined:
    May 1, 2014
    Messages:
    1,379
    Ratings:
    +1,368
    Religion:
    Hinduism
    Every time I see the moon, I wonder how Mohammed split the moon, and more importantly, how he managed to glue it back together, as apparently, the effect of this miracle isn't visible anymore.
     
  5. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    8,077
    Ratings:
    +2,213
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    Well take love, it values love. Mainly that too. Appreciating love. But all that, we don't see the states of people we love and their states of love. We don't even know fully our state of love and how to measure it. We only have some estimate, some of it correct, some of it incorrect. But in all this, we believe there is an objective value to love and the people acting on it.

    And so this question is highly important: where is the states of love and how do we inherit those actions as part of our value. To me this shows there is a system in place (mystically) that makes us inherit our actions, form part of who we are, and all this is not possible with God as the Source of value and the judge and source of judgment and light.

    Also whether we reflect over our good actions of love or not, assess them or not, they form part of who we are regardless. This shows it's not us who makes us inherit these deeds to our soul and not us who ties deeds to who we are, but something above us and entirely different, a perfect judge, is doing this.
     
  6. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    8,077
    Ratings:
    +2,213
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    This is a good topic, but way off-topic lol. Another thread, and I'll be there if you start one and if it's important for you.
     
  7. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    8,077
    Ratings:
    +2,213
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    I have similar belief, in that, without God's grace and intercession as chosen ones, we would almost all fail. Very few would make it. But with his help, we can overcome evils, and with intercession and uniting with his chosen, we can overcome our evil by God's permission.

    Nuh (a) was meant to be sought for intercession and his holy position acknowledged for redemption and as a means of intercession from God, he too was in his time, the door, the path, the way.

    The revelations from God and his chosen ones, are also light inwardly and outwardly, and link us back to God and cleanse us from sins.

    However, this is off-topic. So let's make a new thread if we are going to discus this issue.
     
  8. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2014
    Messages:
    11,576
    Ratings:
    +6,775
    Religion:
    spiritual anti-theist : )
    The way I read your posts in this thread, you're ultimately talking about philosophical questions and spirituality. Personally, I like to de-couple spirituality from religion. I like spirituality, and I mostly dislike religion ;)

    But when thinking about philosophy or spirituality, I don't recall hearing much about trying to put a value on a person. That still seems like an odd idea to me. I suppose it might relate to the idea that some religions have that a supernatural being judges us?
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  9. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    8,077
    Ratings:
    +2,213
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    Whether it seems odd to you or not, doesn't change that fact we humans have value and our actions factor into the value we objectively have.
     
  10. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2014
    Messages:
    11,576
    Ratings:
    +6,775
    Religion:
    spiritual anti-theist : )
    How is our value measured and who does the measuring?
     
  11. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    8,077
    Ratings:
    +2,213
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    This is what the OP is about.
     
  12. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2014
    Messages:
    11,576
    Ratings:
    +6,775
    Religion:
    spiritual anti-theist : )
    Measuring other people's value is the root of much evil. It's an idea built into many religions. It helps foster all manner of "us vs. them" worldviews, which frequently lead to violence and other horrible results.
     
  13. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    8,077
    Ratings:
    +2,213
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    This is a red-herring. I won't respond to it.
     
  14. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2014
    Messages:
    11,576
    Ratings:
    +6,775
    Religion:
    spiritual anti-theist : )
    Hmmm..

    Wouldn't you agree that for thousands of years slave owners (and slavery was a thing across MANY societies), judged that their slaves had less value then slave owners?

    Wouldn't you agree that Sunni's think Shia have less value, and vice versa?

    These days it's pretty clear that Russia thinks Ukranians are of less value.

    The Quran makes it abundantly clear, through massive reiteration, that various forms of non-believers are of less value than believers.

    These days, it might be easy to think that BILLIONAIRES have more value than the rest of us?

    Racism is still a problem, and it's based on the idea that people of some colors are of less value.

    It seems to me that this isn't a red-herring at all. It seems to me it's an almost inevitable consequence of ascribing a value to a person. sigh...
     
  15. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    8,077
    Ratings:
    +2,213
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    You are just showing how people can be immoral with respect to devaluing people.

    This doesn't mean we don't have objective value.
     
  16. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2014
    Messages:
    11,576
    Ratings:
    +6,775
    Religion:
    spiritual anti-theist : )
    I can think of many ways we could try to construct assessment criteria. any approach we choose WOULD be used by the powerful to further dominate others.
     
Loading...