UK's Labour Party Surges to Largest Poll Lead in over Two Decades, Ahead of Conservatives

[Debater Slayer]

Yes, this is why it's not a priority; the class system will still exist as part of the hierarchy - I think trying to wipe out class is a pipe dream, but trying to grease the ladder might help instead of just accepting the less pleasant political aspects of life. I think it must needs be said this is still a conservative movement, so this is expected, I suppose.

I think attempts to entirely eliminate class often result in more injustice than they aim to fix, especially because of how much statism and authoritarianism they require by default. It seems to me that robust social security as well as free health care, decent minimum wages, etc., are more realistic and reasonable goals than elimination of class.

 

[Rival]

I think attempts to entirely eliminate class often result in more injustice than they aim to fix, especially because of how much statism and authoritarianism they require by default. It seems to me that robust social security as well as free health care, decent minimum wages, etc., are more realistic and reasonable goals than elimination of class.

Yes, and it was One Nation Conservatives who supported the creation of the NHS, for example.

 

[Rival]

I think attempts to entirely eliminate class often result in more injustice than they aim to fix, especially because of how much statism and authoritarianism they require by default. It seems to me that robust social security as well as free health care, decent minimum wages, etc., are more realistic and reasonable goals than elimination of class.

"The Conservative Party continued to espouse the philosophy throughout the post-war consensus from 1945. One-nation thinking influenced their tolerance of the Labour government's Keynesian intervention in the economy, formation of a welfare state and the National Health Service. Thanks to Iain Macleod, Edward Heath and Enoch Powell, special attention after 1950 was paid to one-nation conservatism that promised support for the poorer and working class elements in the Party coalition."

[...]

"Disraeli's conservatism proposed a paternalistic society with the social classes intact, but with the working class receiving support from the establishment. He emphasised the importance of social obligation rather than individualism. The phrase was coined because Disraeli feared a Britain divided into two nations, one of the rich and one of the poor, as a result of increased industrialisation and inequality. One-nation conservatism was his solution to this division, namely a system of measures to improve the lives of the people, provide social support and protect the working classes."

One-nation conservatism - Wikipedia

NB it's not Socialism and it's not pretending to be, it is still Conservatism.

 

[Debater Slayer]

"Disraeli's conservatism proposed a paternalistic society with the social classes intact, but with the working class receiving support from the establishment. He emphasised the importance of social obligation rather than individualism. The phrase was coined because Disraeli feared a Britain divided into two nations, one of the rich and one of the poor, as a result of increased industrialisation and inequality. One-nation conservatism was his solution to this division, namely a system of measures to improve the lives of the people, provide social support and protect the working classes."

One-nation conservatism - Wikipedia

Thanks.

What do you object to about Disraeli's views? The above sounds reasonable and close to what you've previously supported, unless I'm missing something.

 

[Rival]

Thanks.

What do you object to about Disraeli's views? The above sounds reasonable and close to what you've previously supported, unless I'm missing something.

I don't object (this my political stance!), I just wanted to clarify that this is distinct from Socialism and thus shouldn't be subjected to 'but it doesn't do xyz..' kinds of questions, as that's not its intention

 

[Debater Slayer]

I don't object (this my political stance!), I just wanted to clarify that this is distinct from Socialism and thus shouldn't be subjected to 'but it doesn't do xyz..' kinds of questions, as that's not its intention

Sometimes the best ideas are an amalgamation of different sources. If it's not socialism but still works, I'll take it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Isn't the current system in the UK, US, etc., indeed too classist, though? What specifically was too much for your liking about Disraeli's views on that? (I'm not familiar with them, myself.)

Ignoring Disraeli for a moment, I'm a strong proponent of social mobility as an important concept in a healthy society.
So, whether that society is arranged in a class-basis or not (and I strongly prefer not) concepts like access to high quality education right through, healthcare to all, etc are important concepts to me.
One of the reasons I see them as important is that I want to give people an opportunity to advance on their merits, and achieve 'better' for themselves and their kids based on their efforts and ability.

My understanding of Disraeli and ONC more generally is that they would similarly see education and health (as examples) as important for all. So in a broad sense, they might align policies with what I'd like, at least in a basic sense.

But that is less to do with concepts like social mobility, and more to do with a belief that the 'elites' in society owe it to the rest of society to use their power to provide for them.

So...at some level, I'm fine with that. Those with more should help those with less. But I suspect at some level of detail, I'd be directly opposed to ONC because it seeks to improve workers lots in the class they're in, whereas my preference is to idealise a meritocracy.

That makes it sound more clear cut than it is, I suspect. And Disraeli did end up with a title (an Earldom I think?), after having been born in a less affluent home situation, hence my comment about him embodying social mobility to a degree.

I'd be the one refusing to take the title, end of the day.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

"The Conservative Party continued to espouse the philosophy throughout the post-war consensus from 1945. One-nation thinking influenced their tolerance of the Labour government's Keynesian intervention in the economy, formation of a welfare state and the National Health Service. Thanks to Iain Macleod, Edward Heath and Enoch Powell, special attention after 1950 was paid to one-nation conservatism that promised support for the poorer and working class elements in the Party coalition."

[...]

"Disraeli's conservatism proposed a paternalistic society with the social classes intact, but with the working class receiving support from the establishment. He emphasised the importance of social obligation rather than individualism. The phrase was coined because Disraeli feared a Britain divided into two nations, one of the rich and one of the poor, as a result of increased industrialisation and inequality. One-nation conservatism was his solution to this division, namely a system of measures to improve the lives of the people, provide social support and protect the working classes."

One-nation conservatism - Wikipedia

NB it's not Socialism and it's not pretending to be, it is still Conservatism.

@Debater Slayer

This is a pretty fair match to my understanding too.
ONC is an important conservative movement, or at least it was.
They're the sort of conservatives I'd have some alignment on with relation to particular issues.