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UK Elections

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I think the election proves the British people like and believe in "the will of the people".

Except (as I just pointed out) the majority voted for parties that promised a second referendum. Boris the Liar will now ignore that.

The cost is our freedom.

Freedom to do what? You still haven't come up with any practical reasons for this Brexit madness, just empty slogans.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
So, you agree that the figure you quoted is made up. And all you are selling is this notion of 'Freedom'
Free to be exploited by China, USA and Russia.

I agree the figure is lower than the actual net amount, in 2018 it was 11 billion, that's from ugov statistics.

We are historically a trading nation, I don't believe we will be exploited,there are great opportunities ahead.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Except (as I just pointed out) the majority voted for parties that promised a second referendum. Boris the Liar will now ignore that.

The remain vote ended in 2016,that ship has sailed and sunk.



Freedom to do what? You still haven't come up with any practical reasons for this Brexit madness, just empty slogans.

It looks like the "brexit madness" is peculiar to remainers as the British people have given a very clear mandate "to get brexit done".
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
It looks like the "brexit madness" is peculiar to remainers as the British people have given a very clear mandate "to get brexit done".

Except they haven't. Boris the Liar's majority is purely the result of the voting system (not to mention all the lies he told) - the majority voted for parties that wanted a second referendum: 51% for a referendum to 47% who voted for Brexit.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Except they haven't. Boris the Liar's majority is purely the result of the voting system (not to mention all the lies he told) - the majority voted for parties that wanted a second referendum: 51% for a referendum to 47% who voted for Brexit.

Everyone is aware how the voting system works like everyone was aware how a referendum worked in 2016,in both cases remain lost.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Everyone is aware how the voting system works like everyone was aware how a referendum worked in 2016,in both cases remain lost.

I'm aware of that, I was making a point about how undemocratic our electoral system actually is - something I've believed since I first became aware of how it worked and isn't directly connected to the Brexit idiocy.

I then made the secondary point that leavers seem really keen to point out democratic failings in the EU when there are bigger problems much closer to home, and that they are really keen on the majority having their way so long as it was the day in 2016 when they were conned into voting leave - something you still haven't been able to give a single, practical reason as to why it's a good idea.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I'm aware of that, I was making a point about how undemocratic our electoral system actually is - something I've believed since I first became aware of how it worked and isn't directly connected to the Brexit idiocy.

I then made the secondary point that leavers seem really keen to point out democratic failings in the EU when there are bigger problems much closer to home, and that they are really keen on the majority having their way so long as it was the day in 2016 when they were conned into voting leave - something you still haven't been able to give a single, practical reason as to why it's a good idea.

I think the voting system will change but we could o ly work with what we have

The benefit of Brexit is autonomy, end of free movement, end of paying into a gravy train for the elites.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I think the voting system will change...

I hope so, but I doubt it. It works too much in favour of the Tory rich elites as it is.

The benefit of Brexit is autonomy...

But you can't say what EU restrictions have done that's bad or how you'd change anything for the better. Every trade deal and international treaty involves some loss of autonomy and the benefits of the EU are significant.

...end of free movement...

Free movement is benefit we will lose.

...end of paying into a gravy train for the elites

You can slam any government or inter government agency as a "gravy train" for some, the main point is are we getting a benefit from it, and the answer is yes.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I hope so, but I doubt it. It works too much in favour of the Tory rich elites as it is.

I think there will be a push for a change, even by farage.



But you can't say what EU restrictions have done that's bad or how you'd change anything for the better. Every trade deal and international treaty involves some loss of autonomy and the benefits of the EU are significant.

I would change everything in the eu to make it better, get rid of the 5 presidents, dissolve the eu parliament, ditch the euro, (for Italy its probably the way to go anyway),basically deconstruct the eu and build it as just a trading block, just that and nothing more.



Free movement is benefit we will lose.

I disagree, free movement of poor people for cheap la our was never a good idea.


You can slam any government or inter government agency as a "gravy train" for some, the main point is are we getting a benefit from it, and the answer is yes.

Depends what you think the benefit is, there is no benefit to being part of what will become (if it doesn't collapse) a federal state, no thanks.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I think there will be a push for a change, even by farage.

Self-serving Boris the Liar would never go for it.

I would change everything in the eu to make it better, get rid of the 5 presidents, dissolve the eu parliament, ditch the euro, (for Italy its probably the way to go anyway),basically deconstruct the eu and build it as just a trading block, just that and nothing more.

Why? I wasn't asking about how you'd change the EU anyway, I was asking what the EU restrictions (as it is) have done to make things practically worse for people in the UK, or how their lot might improve when the restrictions are lifted.

I disagree, free movement of poor people for cheap la our was never a good idea.

Free movement has benefited our economy and reducing immigration will make us all poorer.

Depends what you think the benefit is, there is no benefit to being part of what will become (if it doesn't collapse) a federal state, no thanks.

We've been over the benefits before. Quite apart from the fact that Cameron got an opt-out from "ever closer union", what's wrong with a federal state?
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Self-serving Boris the Liar would never go for it.

I don't think boris is alone in being a lying politician.



Why? I wasn't asking about how you'd change the EU anyway, I was asking what the EU restrictions (as it is) have done to make things practically worse for people in the UK, or how their lot might improve when the restrictions are lifted.

Restrictions on a sovereign state from a foreign organisation,a gradual power grab,we'll be free of that and to me is the most important thing of all.



Free movement has benefited our economy and reducing immigration will make us all poorer.

Swings and roundabouts, there will be less pressure on housing education and health.



We've been over the benefits before. Quite apart from the fact that Cameron got an opt-out from "ever closer union", what's wrong with a federal state?

What's right with a federal state?,we would really be powerless as part of that,whats obvious to anyone is the way the eu are heading in that direction,I doubt its members will get a say in it because its gradual.
 

Martin

Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)
Who's your favourite for the new Labour leader? I like Jess Phillips and Lisa Nandy, they seem more centrist and down to earth than the Corbynistas.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I agree the figure is lower than the actual net amount, in 2018 it was 11 billion, that's from ugov statistics.

We are historically a trading nation, I don't believe we will be exploited,there are great opportunities ahead.


So do you know which of our old trading partners is going to give up a market of 700 million potential customers on favour of 65 million?
 
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