UC Professor. No evidence in the Bible attributing Satan as being evil.

[Akivah]

I was talking about the Christian scriptures.

Oopsie, so you were. Sorry.

 

[Rough Beast Sloucher]

Points to consider.

The devil is Satan. Matthew says the devil tempted Jesus. Jesus addresses the devil as Satan.
Matthew 4:1-11
Mark agrees with this identity
Mark 1:13 and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan.

Satan is the prince of demons
Matthew 12:22-28
The Gospels have many instances of demons causing pain and misery in the world.
Satan (the devil) is their prince and is responsible for this.

The. devil (Satan) is the enemy who sows evil in the world
Matthew 13:36-39
Satan takes away the word of God from people
Mark 4:13-15
Likewise in Luke
Luke 8:12

There are many instances of Satan being the tempter and obstacle and deceiver as he appears in the OT.
A few examples: 1 Corinthians 7:5 , 2 Corinthians 2:10-11 , 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

Yet Satan in the NT cannot be merely one who tests people. If he were why then is he going to be punished?

The devil (Satan) and his angels (presumably demons) will be punished in eternal fire,
Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


This passage needs careful examination.

Revelation 12
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Is this war in heaven in the future or is it in the past? If it is in the future, then who are the demons that Satan is prince of in the present? If they are the angels of Satan, and they are doing nasty things on earth now and are afraid of Jesus, then the war must have been in the past. If the demons are not the angels of Satan, who are they and why is Satan their prince?

Satan is referred to as ‘that ancient serpent … who leads the whole world astray’ Are there any ancient serpents who led anyone astray? Other than the Eden incident, that is. It seems that the serpent who tempted Eve may very well be Satan after all.

OTOH if the war is in the future that would be in accord with subsequent verses in Revelation 12:10-17. References to the testimony and sacrifice of Jesus and the woman who had given birth as events that had already happened when the devil is hurled to earth. Also the devil knows his time is short.


IMO the question of whether Satan is a ‘good guy’, a tempter ultimately working for God, or a ‘bad guy’, an active opponent of God, is not so simple. And again IMO, resolving the conundrum of Revelation 12 and relating it to other parts of the NT is necessary.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Satan tortured Job in all possible ways to prove all knowing God wrong. If that is not evil and stupid, I don’t know what is.

God gave the order, though. The person who orders the hit is just as guilty as the person who does it.

I wonder why Jesus called him Lord of Flies. Wonder why the devil shall be hurled into the Lake of Fire by God's agents if he isn't evil.

Wonder why Jesus was executed if he wasn't evil. His torture and death prove his sin, right?

God sounds like Putin: if you get angry at someone, "accidents" happen.

Sort of like if the government flooded the country with illegal drugs then locked people in jail for using them...but "just say no to drugs".

I thought entrapment was illegal and unethical, though.

Actually Satan was telling the truth about the tree.

He said nothing, because he's not in the story. The NT lied. It was just a serpent. The lizard is no more Satan than Balaam's donkey is God.

Still, I do not understand how you dare.

It is not blasphemy against God to criticize the character of Whom in a particular text. God does not live inside the bible. The bible is a bunch of stories about humanity moving further from personal relationships with God. In the Beginning, God can walk around and hang out with us. By the end, no one can see God at all.

I find the de-evolution of God to be fascinating, especially in a sacred text supposedly devoted to Him. Don't you?

The devil is Satan. Matthew says the devil tempted Jesus. Jesus addresses the devil as Satan.

He also calls Peter Satan, which, if you consider that to be some sort of code key (most of the bible reads like coded stories), makes the NT far more interesting. Peter tempts Jesus, Peter tells Judas to betray Jesus ... all so Peter can grab the keys to the kingdom with his undeserving hands.

Satan is referred to as ‘that ancient serpent … who leads the whole world astray’ Are there any ancient serpents who led anyone astray? Other than the Eden incident, that is. It seems that the serpent who tempted Eve may very well be Satan after all.

If I call someone an a$$, it doesn't make them Balaam's donkey or the mules Jesus rode in on.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Almost funny claim. Satan tortured Job in all possible ways to prove all knowing God wrong. If that is not evil and stupid, I don’t know what is.

Unbelievers judge such stories differently. As with the story of the fall of man at the hands of the serpent, most of us find the deity responsible. With omniscience and omnipotence comes omni-responsibility.

If you let a serpent deceive babes, it's on you.

If you let Satan torture Job, it's on you.

If you build a torture pit, stock it with the demons you created, and dump souls that you gratuitously kept conscious into it just to torture them to the benefit of no one but sadists, then you are source of evil, not your creations.

• "The Lord hath made all things for himself, even the wicked for the day of evil" - Proverbs 16:4

• "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7
  
  

 

[Enoch07]

I’d question calling murder. If I told you that drinking a bottle of potion won’t necessarily kill you and you chose to drink the poison, I couldn’t be convicted of murder. Even for it to be a lie requires it to have been unconditionally true that eating the fruit would have automatically rendered Adam and Eve mortal, rather than it being an active punishment by God for disobeying him. Presumably God could have maintained their immortality if he’d wanted to so it wasn’t really true that they’d surely die.

Sorry but your just wrong there.

 

[Enoch07]

Actually Satan was telling the truth about the tree. The tree itself can't kill you so there was no lie.

However ....

Maybe he should have warned them beforehand that it would be God that would kill them.

If Satan is guilty of anything it would be just withholding crucial information. Provided of course he knew anything about unforeseen or unintended consequences.

See now your being subjective though.

Immortal before the fruit.

Mortal after the fruit.

Satan lied.

 

[Enoch07]

The source is an author writing nearly 100 years later with "eyewitness" accounts, passed down over and again.

The quote was written in Greek, translated again and again, until you finally have an English version you can understand.

How does he have a direct quote from Jesus exactly? And did you "consider the source" at all?

Because I have faith the size of a mustard seed.

 

[Enoch07]

There is a difference between "devil" and "Devil." The Bible capitalizes proper nouns.

LoLz

 

[Rough Beast Sloucher]

He also calls Peter Satan, which, if you consider that to be some sort of code key (most of the bible reads like coded stories), makes the NT far more interesting. Peter tempts Jesus, Peter tells Judas to betray Jesus ... all so Peter can grab the keys to the kingdom with his undeserving hands.

If I call someone an a$$, it doesn't make them Balaam's donkey or the mules Jesus rode in on.

The Bible reads like coded stories to those who find the straightforward reading to be other than what they want it to be.

Matthew 16
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

The word translated as ‘Satan’ is the Greek satanas which is derived from the Aramaic word for ‘adversary’. Almost every reference to Satan in the NT uses this word. Nonetheless it may not have the same meaning everywhere. In Matthew 16:23 the word has no article associated with it, which is the equivalent of an indefinite article in English. Jesus is saying that Peter is an adversary. By contrast, in Matthew 12:26, the word has a definite article associated with it. In this context it is a name or other definite label. Matthew 12 is talking about the Satan. Matthew 16 is talking about an adversary.

In Revelation 12:9 the words ‘serpent’ and ‘Satan’ both have definite articles. You might call someone an a$$ but if you call them the a$$, you have a definite one in mind. Which definite ancient serpent who leads people astray did Revelation have in mind?

 

[Twilight Hue]

See now your being subjective though.

Immortal before the fruit.

Mortal after the fruit.

Satan lied.

What's the lie about? The tree only had to deal with the knowledge of Good and Evil. It's clear enough in the story the tree itself isn't going to kill you.

 

[Enoch07]

What's the lie about? The tree only had to deal with the knowledge of Good and Evil. It's clear enough in the story the tree itself isn't going to kill you.

By partaking of it, you are giving up immortality, becoming able to die. So yes, the partaking of the tree is essentially killing you.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Unbelievers judge such stories differently. As with the story of the fall of man at the hands of the serpent, most of us find the deity responsible. With omniscience and omnipotence comes omni-responsibility.

If you let a serpent deceive babes, it's on you.

If you let Satan torture Job, it's on you.

If you build a torture pit, stock it with the demons you created, and dump souls that you gratuitously kept conscious into it just to torture them to the benefit of no one but sadists, then you are source of evil, not your creations.

• "The Lord hath made all things for himself, even the wicked for the day of evil" - Proverbs 16:4

• "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7

So many Christians try to squirm their way around the accounts in Job without realizing God had just as much a hand in it if not more. Reading the story here, Satan seems to be more of a confident and assistant with God of whom the two had a dispute. God said sure I'll give you the green light, just don't kill my favorite but you can do anything else to him.

This led me to view God as being ambivalent with a greater tendency for the malicious. That view fit in better with the Bible rather than just saying God is good and righteous all the time. God certainly isn't good and righteous that's for certain, but not a total tyrant as well. However with some clear-cut passages and chapters throughout the compilation of the Holy Bible of gods violent and evil nature in directing his people, that can be open to interpretation.

Xkatz had made an interesting thread here on RF in "the good old days", dealing with the subject of God's ambivalent qualities..
God as Neither Good nor Evil

Back more on the subject of Satan before it goes off topic....

Satan appears to be the same way as it's written in the narratives. Not good not evil which makes me think Satan as being the right-hand man of God. .... ... Or perhaps the left garnering equal importance with the right.

With all the obvious gaps in the Bible's storyline, it's hard to tell the details they could stitch all the rest of the stories together.

But being that there is some passages already written about Satan in the Bible itself, it leads you to think there has to be more somewhere out there, maybe undiscovered apocryphal writings that could fill in the missing gaps more adequately. Until something is discovered, it's anybody's guess.

For now, the Bible is clearly an incomplete compilation of books that doesn't give the whole story.

 

[Father Heathen]

You have the right to your opinion. It is not my problem.

As do you, and nor is it his.

Still, I do not understand how you dare. It is one thing to make an enemy of another human, I have my share of such; however, making an enemy out of God - now that is a problem in capitals. I can tell you one thing you might already think - the scary one is not the devil; the scary one is God, even the fallen angels, satan included, tremble when they think of what he is going to do to them.

Being critical of what primitive mortals presumed about god isn't the same as "making an enemy of god". If anyone is "making an enemy of god", it's those who would put words in his mouth (I.E. what your religion does).

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I so love the authoritarians speak on issues they have no idea about. This happens somewhat frequently.

Agree.

I have compiled a large collection of them telling me why as an atheist, I can't understand scripture, and am unqualified to comment on what it says.

why is Satan being painted as evil in the Bible? God is clearly far more malicious if you were to put all the acts of murder and deception respectively in comparative columns tallying God's and Satan's recorded deeds and actions. It seems God is actually the evil one in the Bible.

The Christian god is arguably the most vicious enemy of humanity in history and fiction. He has allegedly already nearly sterilized the earth once already, and is said to be planning to do so again. Satan, Hitler, and Darth Vader are all pretty small potatoes compared to that.

It is one thing to make an enemy of another human, I have my share of such; however, making an enemy out of God - now that is a problem in capitals.

I think you just made an enemy of Allah. Is that terrifying to you? I'm betting that it isn't.

 

[Father Heathen]

Agreed, why is your logic not consistent?

You've failed to demonstrate that, but I'm willing to give you another chance to show me. Hopefully you'll come up with something coherent next time.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You have the right to your opinion. It is not my problem.

Still, I do not understand how you dare. It is one thing to make an enemy of another human, I have my share of such; however, making an enemy out of God - now that is a problem in capitals. I can tell you one thing you might already think - the scary one is not the devil; the scary one is God, even the fallen angels, satan included, tremble when they think of what he is going to do to them.

I used to have a great fear of God. For a long time too. But when people constantly are saying that God is not a god of fear then suddenly turn around and use fear as a lever, it makes you start thinking about some things. Do good Gods act like that?

That is until I one day started to realize God is actually comparable as a mental bunraku puppet by which people animate and control through themselves, projecting gods will and actions quite well.

In short God is in actuality when you take away all human influence, is no different in itself than any other mythological gods of the ancients such as Thor, Odin, Apollo, Zeus, and Baal. All which have some interesting stories in their own right.

The only thing that is actually dangerous about God is other people acting on " his" behalf which is why I say God is a religious themed puppet that people use.

God is completely harmless otherwise until people decide to put a voice and action to God to make him appear "alive". Sometimes good sometimes bad... You easily see the pattern manifest here so I'm not worried about God as being an enemy.

I view Satan in the same way. But that aspect is certainly a whole nother topic.

The topic I wanted to talk and focus about is why Satan is considered evil and the bad guy when God is portrayed as being no different, and why there are no extensive writings about Satan considering the central role he plays in biblical lore aside from the various bits and pieces considering that Satan is a fundamental component of Christendom.

 

[Curious George]

My understanding is, and I admit I am no expert here, that at the time what would become Christian scripture was first written down it was written using all capital letters. To the extent one relies on Hebrew scripture, I would simply point that Hebrew does not have upper and lower case letters.

Yes, but one would have to admit their English bible is incorrect to rely on such thing. You see much rides on the assumption that the bible is infallible. While people may acknowledge minor transcription errors, this error relates to an idea. To suggest that in this instance devil=Devil is to say that the bible is incorrect in a way which distorts subject matter.

I am fine with such an assertion. A give and take approach. Such a concession destroys arguments in other arenas.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I have yet to see the devil in nature. So the professor is rather religious minded and profoundly confused. What exactly is evil? A tricky question.

True. Although I think the professor himself is pretty level-headed in spite of any religious affiliation he may or may not have.

A better way to understand this is when you apply the concepts of Good and Evil to forces of nature instead of humans.

A more clear picture seems to emerge after some consideration when you take into account that the forces of nature are actually indifferent.

 

[Enoch07]

You've failed to demonstrate that, but I'm willing to give you another chance to show me. Hopefully you'll come up with something coherent next time.

LoL

Says the man that does not believe in god. Yet God is a murderer. Very coherent.

 

[Father Heathen]

LoL

Says the man that does not believe in god. Yet God is a murderer. Very coherent.

One, I'm agnostic. Two, I can say that The Joker is a murderer even though he's not real, because that's how the character is presented in fictitious works. Also, Abraham Lincoln was real, but does that make the novel/movie "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter" real? Of course not. Same with god. Even if there was/is a god, that doesn't make any of the silly **** that mortals have wrote about 'him' true.