Two Kinds of Salvation

[savagewind]

Far from it. I don't like putting words into others' mouths. I'm about loving the world: not judging it. I got that from a savior I know.

A strawman is an argument which diverts from the point argument which was this:

You say to love needs faith and also said an atheist obeys the Golden Rule, which I am assuming is love.

You did not address the seemingly contradiction. Can you do that?

 

[Ben Avraham]

I don't deny any of the atrocities done to or by the Jews... or the Caucasions, or the Blacks, or the Various versions of Asians, or the Serbians, or the theists or the atheists and the list goes on and on. Call it what you will, a territorial imperative, war mongering, power plays: it simply doesn't matter. Karma is a bully. What goes around comes back at you and usually hurts a hell of a lot worse.

What I take exception to, is you blindly condemning any group without any tangible substantiation. You leapt to a biased conclusion from a faulty premise using failed stereotypes. It was nothing but bigotry and intellectual dishonesty on your part. You can assign all sorts of horrible motivations to me that you want but that doesn't make them true. It only shows that you don't want to deal with the real and substantial criticisms I leveled at your statements. Why not address the criticisms first rather than blather on and only embarrass yourself?

FWIW, I am part Jewish and lost relatives in Auschwitz. All genocide is deplorable no matter what genotype we are referring to.

There is no such a thing as part Jewish. One is either a whole Jew or he is not Jewish at all. Again, from reading this post of yours above, the impression stays that you don't want to hear Jews reminding others of the murdering caused to the Jewish People through History. You mention above other atrocities committed by other peoples as if this justifies what we went through. Usually, they were at wars among themselves. The Jews were not in war with no one. They suffered what they suffered for being Jewish and because of the lies that they killed Jesus.

 

[savagewind]

Is obeying the Golden Rule not love?

 

[savagewind]

It does not take faith to love. Agree?

I do not agree...

Galatians 5:6 The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. NIV

Don't confuse affection for agape. Agape is a decision to put the needs of others above your own. The deeper we believe God, the deeper we love. In the Matthew 25 account we see the unthinkable. People who claim to believe are being judged by their lack of love and not their profession of belief. It's obvious from this parable that an atheist who acts on the Golden rule is far more a Christian than a professed Christian who does not.

I think love defined is; the selfless concern for the welfare of others.

I am certain that atheists do that occasionally.

But @Scuba Pete says that to love takes faith.

It is my opinion that faith makes a person NOT an atheist.

God is love.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7

Love is patient and kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs, love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth....

All people can love because of being in God's image. Not all people have faith.

 

[Scuba Pete]

There is no such a thing as part Jewish.

So, you're bigoted against us 'mudbloods' too, eh? 2 phreakin' phunni. I bet my dead relatives at Auschwitz are now pointing their ghostly fingers at their Nazi tormentors and saying "I told you so!"

Here's the thing... go read the Old Testament. You'll find lots of genocide there perpetrated by the Jews and they all blamed God for their bloodthirstiness. So, unless the atrocity happens to a Jew it doesn't count? What a biased view of the world. Here's a few atrocities to ponder on...

1492 Europeans start the assault on Native Americans.
1913 Armenians in the Ottoman Empire
1936 The Holocaust included not only Jews, but a number of Gypsies as victims. We shouldn't forget the Homosexuals and disabled who were also targeted, though not as many.
1975 Khmer Rouge in Cambodia 1 to 2 million were killed for all sorts of reasons.
1990 The Hutus went after the Tutsis. This was amazingly horrible in every way.
1992 The Serbs tried to eradicate the Boznians and Croatians.

This isn't an exhaustive list and while you may have a hard time accepting this, they weren't all about the Christians oppressing the Israelites. Does that make them any less deplorable because you weren't being singled out? Only if you have some agenda other than reality.

Except for the American Indians, these were only the ones I could find in the twentieth century. I didn't include any of the atrocities by the Jews on their neighbors as recorded in scripture.

 

[Scuba Pete]

All people can love because of being in God's image.

Yet God is Spirit. His image is spiritual. Faith is just as built into us as is love. You can deny the faith, and still be faithful. You can claim faith and still be faithless.

 

[savagewind]

So, you're bigoted against us 'mudbloods' too, eh? 2 phreakin' phunni. I bet my dead relatives at Auschwitz are now pointing their ghostly fingers at their Nazi tormentors and saying "I told you so!"

Here's the thing... go read the Old Testament. You'll find lots of genocide there perpetrated by the Jews and they all blamed God for their bloodthirstiness. So, unless the atrocity happens to a Jew it doesn't count? What a biased view of the world. Here's a few atrocities to ponder on...

1492 Europeans start the assault on Native Americans.
1913 Armenians in the Ottoman Empire
1936 The Holocaust included not only Jews, but a number of Gypsies as victims. We shouldn't forget the Homosexuals and disabled who were also targeted, though not as many.
1975 Khmer Rouge in Cambodia 1 to 2 million were killed for all sorts of reasons.
1990 The Hutus went after the Tutsis. This was amazingly horrible in every way.
1992 The Serbs tried to eradicate the Boznians and Croatians.

This isn't an exhaustive list and while you may have a hard time accepting this, they weren't all about the Christians oppressing the Israelites. Does that make them any less deplorable because you weren't being singled out? Only if you have some agenda other than reality.

Except for the American Indians, these were only the ones I could find in the twentieth century. I didn't include any of the atrocities by the Jews on their neighbors as recorded in scripture.

And?............love does not keep account of the injury.

 

[savagewind]

Yet God is Spirit. His image is spiritual. Faith is just as built into us as is love. You can deny the faith, and still be faithful. You can claim faith and still be faithless.

I thought you might be one of those people who believe in scripture, that it is all God's word.

2 Thessalonians 3:2 .......not everyone has faith.

Where do you think it is written that all do not have love?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Where do you think it is written that all do not have love?

That's the basis of Matthew 25. Read it again.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I thought you might be one of those people who believe in scripture, that it is all God's word.

It's more complicated than that. The Scriptures teach us that they are useful (2 Timothy) but that Jesus is the Word (John 1). I see no reason to disagree. While the Word (Jesus) is perfect, the scriptures never claim to be... only useful and inspired by God.

 

[savagewind]

That's the basis of Matthew 25. Read it again.

I see the parable of the sheep and the goats differently. I think the sheep are with Jesus the Shepherd doing the works of God with him and goats are on their own doing their own version of faithfulness.
It is not about doing good to anybody. How can it be? He says, "you did to me".

How are you making it about doing your own thing to anybody you want to?

Try this on. To do good to the least of Jesus' brothers means furthering the interests of God's Kingdom as all his brothers, sisters, and family members are called "they who do the will of God".

Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother

So, the parable is not about loving. It is about righteousness.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Matthew 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ NIV

Hungry, thirsty, lonely, cold, sick and in prison. Nothing 'churchy' about that. Sounds like love to me. Love with teeth in it. Radical disciple like love. Can you believe the nerve of Jesus? He wants us to love in real tangible ways rather than simple platitudes. No goo: all glue. Next he's going to tell us that EVERYONE is our neighbor! Where will it end? What are we? Living sacrifices???

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. NIV

Unfortunately, those living sacrifices keep crawling off the alter. It's harder to put others ahead of yourself, day in and day out. I'm not there yet, but I'm a lot closer than I was at the beginning of the century. Anyone who thinks you can love like Jesus without God's help is delusional. You can be sure that they haven't really tried.

 

[savagewind]

Matthew 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ NIV

Hungry, thirsty, lonely, cold, sick and in prison. Nothing 'churchy' about that. Sounds like love to me. Love with teeth in it. Radical disciple like love. Can you believe the nerve of Jesus? He wants us to love in real tangible ways rather than simple platitudes. No goo: all glue. Next he's going to tell us that EVERYONE is our neighbor! Where will it end? What are we? Living sacrifices???

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. NIV

Unfortunately, those living sacrifices keep crawling off the alter. It's harder to put others ahead of yourself, day in and day out. I'm not there yet, but I'm a lot closer than I was at the beginning of the century. Anyone who thinks you can love like Jesus without God's help is delusional. You can be sure that they haven't really tried.

OK Nice rant. i think that is very nice.

Why aren't you yelling at the people who say Jesus comes to destroy all them who won't get in line with him?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Why aren't you yelling at the people who say Jesus comes to destroy all them who won't get in line with him?

I find that they yell enough for the both of us.

Christianity can be used by various people and groups for various agendas. I find it discouraging when they use Christianity as a verbal club to attack their "NOK"s among other practices I have seen. I can adopt their methodology, their mentality and so become just like them, or I can choose Love. Guess which path I took.

 

[Ben Avraham]

So, you're bigoted against us 'mudbloods' too, eh? 2 phreakin' phunni. I bet my dead relatives at Auschwitz are now pointing their ghostly fingers at their Nazi tormentors and saying "I told you so!"

Here's the thing... go read the Old Testament. You'll find lots of genocide there perpetrated by the Jews and they all blamed God for their bloodthirstiness. So, unless the atrocity happens to a Jew it doesn't count? What a biased view of the world. Here's a few atrocities to ponder on...

1492 Europeans start the assault on Native Americans.
1913 Armenians in the Ottoman Empire
1936 The Holocaust included not only Jews, but a number of Gypsies as victims. We shouldn't forget the Homosexuals and disabled who were also targeted, though not as many.
1975 Khmer Rouge in Cambodia 1 to 2 million were killed for all sorts of reasons.
1990 The Hutus went after the Tutsis. This was amazingly horrible in every way.
1992 The Serbs tried to eradicate the Boznians and Croatians.

This isn't an exhaustive list and while you may have a hard time accepting this, they weren't all about the Christians oppressing the Israelites. Does that make them any less deplorable because you weren't being singled out? Only if you have some agenda other than reality.

Except for the American Indians, these were only the ones I could find in the twentieth century. I didn't include any of the atrocities by the Jews on their neighbors as recorded in scripture.

So, how do you explain the murders of Jewish women and children by Palestinian terrorists and no one says any thing in protest. When we decide to defend ourselves, the whole world protests against the "Jews practicing homicide in the Middle East?" Does that sound familiar to you?

 

[rusra02]

No one, under any circumstance will enjoy eternal life. The reason why Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Genesis 3:22,23) It means that whoever is born or had a beginning cannot have eternal life. Only HaShem is eternal life. If there was a Minyan of ten adults Jews at that time prior to Noah, the Flood would not have happened. Hence, Jesus said that (universal) salvation comes from the Jews. (John 4:22)

It would be indeed sad if it were true that "No one, under any circumstance will enjoy eternal life." Happily, the Bible teaches that each one of us can attain everlasting life. How unjust and cruel it would have been, IMO, for the true God to present the tree representing eternal life, only to snatch it from Adam and Eve. Rather, I believe Adam and Eve followed the Devil in rebelling against their Lifegiver, and received the just outcome their sin deserved. Still, the Scriptures promise "He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces." (Isaiah 25:8)

 

[Scuba Pete]

So, how do you explain

Hate and bigotry are wrong. It's wrong for the Palestines to hate the Jews, no doubt. It's also wrong for the Jews to hate the Palestines. The US has always favored Israel first, but don't expect us to join in your bigotry. We don't have to hate others to prove our like of you. There's a lot of press here in the US about atrocities done by both sides so your premise is a false one. I would suggest you work things out with your neighbor and stop trying to blame the world. We've tried to help with that process, but both sides are intractable. When they can tame their own xenophobia, the two sides will come together. Not until and there's nothing anyone can do for you in the interim except shake our collective heads in dismay.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Hate and bigotry are wrong. It's wrong for the Palestines to hate the Jews, no doubt. It's also wrong for the Jews to hate the Palestines. The US has always favored Israel first, but don't expect us to join in your bigotry. We don't have to hate others to prove our like of you. There's a lot of press here in the US about atrocities done by both sides so your premise is a false one. I would suggest you work things out with your neighbor and stop trying to blame the world. We've tried to help with that process, but both sides are intractable. When they can tame their own xenophobia, the two sides will come together. Not until and there's nothing anyone can do for you in the interim except shake our collective heads in dismay.

You have proved what I expected you would say. We don't hate the Palestinians. We have come as down as to offer them peace with territory. Their answer was NO! They are ready to accept peace but, the Jews must go no matter that millions have been born in the Land of Israel. But back to you, I was aware that you would charge our self-defense as being Jewish bigotry. The enemies of Israel never fail! Of that, I am always right. Believe me I am. The Arabic shame is that 75% of the people in Israeli welfare are Palestinians. So much money they have but they won't take care of their own brothers.

 

[Scuba Pete]

The enemies of Israel never fail!

Are you always this delusional, or do you have to take a pill to get that way? I'm not your enemy but I do find you irrational and unreasonable. I can't help you overcome either, so have fun.

 

[Ben Avraham]

It would be indeed sad if it were true that "No one, under any circumstance will enjoy eternal life." Happily, the Bible teaches that each one of us can attain everlasting life. How unjust and cruel it would have been, IMO, for the true God to present the tree representing eternal life, only to snatch it from Adam and Eve. Rather, I believe Adam and Eve followed the Devil in rebelling against their Lifegiver, and received the just outcome their sin deserved. Still, the Scriptures promise "He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces." (Isaiah 25:8)

Listen my friend, eternal life for man is not logical. To be eternal, one has to be from both sides, back and forth; without a beginning and without an end. Only God is eternal because He had no beginning and will never end. I am sorry if you are dilapidated to hear that you won't have eternal life. What you want is that God change our nature. God can do every thing but one; what you wish He did or should have done. Logic does not work that way.. Logic goes hand-in-hand with nature.