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Two Goats and The Cross

Discussion in 'Journals' started by KenS, Jul 26, 2020.

  1. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Leviticus 16: 7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness.... ...
    15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness...

    21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

    To not make this a long thread, let me synthesize on how Christians find Jesus in this holy moment.

    Jewish writers say that the goats were to be similar in color, size et all... for Christians it is a shadow of Jesus - being the same meaning that it is the same person - Jesus.

    One goat was sacrificed for the sins of the people (for us it represents humanity).

    What I find very interesting is when Aaron lays his hand on the live goat to confess all the sins as if he was transferring all the sins onto the goat. Here the type and shadow is when Jesus took the sins of the world onto himself to pay for all sins.

    Then the goat was taken to a place in the wilderness, a rough uninhabited place where no one knew where it went and what happened to it as if to say that Jesus took our sins to a faraway place (Psalms 103 - as far as the east is from the west, so far he has taken our iniquities).

    We find in Isaiah 53 a Hebrew word NASA. (much like the shuttle that takes a load and carries it to a far away place) it is said 12 Therefore will I
    divide him a portion with the great, and he shall dividethe spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death:and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    The word "bare" is the word nasa. Indeed he carried the sin and forever sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us that we would understand the work that was accomplished on the Cross.

    I realize that this is a Christian viewpoint but I thought some on the forum might be interested to know our perspective.
     
  2. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Which Church would have that viewpoint?

    [​IMG]

    There are a lot of Christian denominations as you are aware of
    Different preachers with weird teachings and that is not a surprise because
    this was prophesied by Jesus Christ a long time ago.

    On my point of view these animal sacrifices are passe and they are followed by the Israelites
    If you are not an Israelite, well it is best to learn cooking goat meat stewed in tomato sauce. The adult goat meat, Chevon, is commonly used for this dish. The meat is sautéed with garlic, onions, and tomatoes then stewed in tomato sauce until it becomes tender.

    upload_2020-7-26_20-4-33.jpeg

    That is how goats end up in the table and I believe we shouldn't play with our food.
     
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  3. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    That sure looks good.... I'm hungry now!

    I'm not aware of a Christian church that has a different perspective but, yes, for Christians, these sacrifices are fulfilled in Jesus.
     
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  4. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Hebrew Bible Leviticus 16.
    ז וְלָקַח, אֶת-שְׁנֵי הַשְּׂעִירִם; וְהֶעֱמִיד אֹתָם לִפְנֵי יְהוָה, פֶּתַח אֹהֶל מוֹעֵד. 7 And he shall take the two goats, and set them before the LORD at the door of the tent of meeting.
    ח וְנָתַן אַהֲרֹן עַל-שְׁנֵי הַשְּׂעִירִם, גֹּרָלוֹת--גּוֹרָל אֶחָד לַיהוָה, וְגוֹרָל אֶחָד לַעֲזָאזֵל. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats: one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for AZAZEL.
    ט וְהִקְרִיב אַהֲרֹן אֶת-הַשָּׂעִיר, אֲשֶׁר עָלָה עָלָיו הַגּוֹרָל לַיהוָה; וְעָשָׂהוּ, חַטָּאת. 9 And Aaron shall present the goat upon which the lot fell for the LORD, and offer him for a sin-offering.
    י וְהַשָּׂעִיר, אֲשֶׁר עָלָה עָלָיו הַגּוֹרָל לַעֲזָאזֵל, יָעֳמַד-חַי לִפְנֵי יְהוָה, לְכַפֵּר עָלָיו--לְשַׁלַּח אֹתוֹ לַעֲזָאזֵל, הַמִּדְבָּרָה. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell for AZAZEL, shall be set alive before the LORD, to make atonement over him, to send him away for AZAZEL.into the wilderness.

    Azazel who is in the wilderness.

    Aaron would place his hands upon the head of the scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel, before sending the scapegoat away for AZAZEL, to whom all sin is inscribed, into the wilderness.

    Azazel was one of the sons of God who descended in the days of Jared the father of Enoch, who revealed that Azazel was the one who taught man to make swords, and knives, and shields and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth, and the art of working them, etc, etc. See The Book of Enoch the prophet 8:1.

    And the Lord commanded that Azazel be taken out into the wilderness where he was to be buried and covered with rough and Jagged stones, and ALL SIN WAS TO BE ASCRIBED TO HIM.

    Your brother in Christ.
     
  5. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    :) We already went through that. No need for a Deja vu moment.
     
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  6. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    So you reject the Hebrew bible as well as the books of righteous Enoch as well, do you?
     
  7. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    i talked with some one that held the belief that the scapegoat was lead off and was killed as ,a sacrifice ,by throwing it off a cliff and that it pictured judas iscariot
     
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  8. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I'm not sure what your point is... we are talking about a very dubious and mostly rejected definition of Azazel

    I realize you are trying to make a point... but the point needs to be more poignant and maybe the post a little smaller? It can get lost in all the historical information
     
    #8 KenS, Jul 26, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Your view is not based on the Bible but on non-canonical books that do not furnish truth. Azazel was not a man.

    The Book of Enoch is an apocryphal and pseudepigraphic text. It is falsely ascribed to Enoch. Produced probably sometime during the second and first centuries B.C.E., it is a collection of extravagant and unhistorical Jewish myths, evidently the product of exegetical elaborations on the brief Genesis reference to Enoch. This alone is sufficient for serious Bible students to dismiss it.

    "The word “Azazel” occurs four times in the Bible, in regulations pertaining to Atonement Day.—Le 16:8, 10, 26.

    The etymology of this word is disputed. If we hold to the spelling in the Hebrew Masoretic text, ʽazaʼ·zelʹ seems to be a combination of two root words meaning “goat” and “disappear.” Thus the meaning “Goat That Disappears.” According to another derivation, based on the belief that there has been a transposition of two consonants, it means “Strength of God.” The Latin Vulgate renders the Hebrew word as caper emissarius, that is, “the emissary goat,” or “the scapegoat.” And the Greek expression used in the Septuagint means “the one carrying away (averting) evil.”

    Azazel — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
  10. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry that you have such a short attention span mate, but we know that Moses who founded the Jewish church quoted from the books of Enoch, as did Jesus, and his apostles, which books were cherished by the early Christians up until the fourth century, when under the ban of dogmatic authorities of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, such as Hilary, Jerome, and Augustine they finally passed out of circulation and were thought lost for millennia

    According to the ancient writings, it was in the days of Enoch’s Father ‘Jared’, which name means ‘Descending,’ that 200 Sons of God, who Enoch describes as watchers or rather OBSERVERS, descended and introduced into the primitive culture of mankind, technology that was about equivalent to that which had been achieved three thousand years in the future.

    The Orthodox religious organisations are ignorant as to who Azazel is, because they have rejected the words of Enoch, who is the chosen cornerstone, to who all the spirits of the righteous are gathered in the creation of the new temple of light, which is to replace God’s old tent, the body of mankind, wherein the innermost sanctuary, behind the veil of the flesh dwells our parental spirit: The stone that has been rejected by the builders of the Jewish and universal church of Emperor Constantine has turned out to be the most important Stone of all.

    The books of Enoch from which Jesus and his apostles taught, were cherished by the early Christians and were held in great reverence by many of the early church fathers, including Irenaeus, Tertullian and Origen, until the early 4th century when, under the ban of dogmatic religious authorities such as Jerome, Hillary and Augustin, they finally passed out of circulation and were thought lost for millennia.

    In the Epistle of Jude, who is also called Thomas Didymus Jude [The Twin], and who was born to the house of Mary the mother of Jesus and her husband, the carpenter, See Matthew 13: 55; Jude quotes verbatim from the book of Enoch.

    The name Jared, means “DESCENDING” see Young’s Analytical Concordance. And in the Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, it is written that it was in the days of Jared [The physical father of Enoch] that the Sons of God abandoned their own original habitat and defiled themselves with the daughters of man.

    In his last testament, Reuben, the first born son of Jacob who was renamed Israel, states that those Sons of God [The shining ones] would possess the bodies of the men while they were with their wives and from there were able to pass on their issue and giants were born of those unions, and according to Jewish culture, Noah was born a Giant.

    From the ‘Book of Enoch the Prophet’ CVI: 1-6, “Methuselah took a wife for his son Lamech, and she became pregnant by him and bore a son. And his body was as white as snow and (His cheeks) as red as the blooming of a rose and the hair on his head and his long locks were white as wool, and his eyes beautiful. And when he opened his eyes, he lighted up the whole house like the sun, and the whole house was very bright. And thereupon he arose in the hands of the midwife, opened his mouth, and conversed with the Lord of righteousness. And his father Lamech was afraid of him, and Lamech fled and ran to his father Methuselah. And he said to him: “I have begotten a strange son, diverse from and unlike man, and resembling the sons of the God of heaven; and his nature is different, and he is not like us, and his eyes are as the rays of the sun, and his countenance is glorious. And it seems that he is not sprung from me, but from the angels. And I fear that in his days, a wonder may be wrought on the earth.

    Concerning Azazel, we read in the Book of Enoch the prophet, chapter 9 to chapter 10; “And Michael said to the heavenly Lord, "Seest what ‘AZAZEL’ hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and has revealed the eternal secrets which were preserved in heaven, which men were striving to learn. And Semjaza, to whom you have given authority to bear rule over his associates (The other 199 sons of God) and they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth and have slept with them and revealed to them all kinds of sin etc.

    Semjaza, the leader of the observers, taught enchantments, and root cutting, among other sons of God who revealed to the women all kinds of sin, were Armaros, who taught the resolving of enchantments, Baralqual taught astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon, etc.

    But Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tintures etc.

    The Lord, through his only begotten prophet Enoch, then passed judgment on the angels who had forsaken their own original habitat and came down and defiled themselves with the daughters of men, saying to them; “You have been in heaven, but all the mysteries had not yet been revealed to you, and you knew only worthless ones, and these in the hardness of your hearts you have made known to the women, and through these mysteries women and men work much evil on earth.”

    They were then to be bound and cast into the valley of the earth until seventy generations had passed, (Jesus was seventy generations from Enoch, see Luke 3: 23-38) but Azazel was punished separate from the others, See the Book of Enoch the Prophet 10: 4-9; “And again the Lord said to Raphael: Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening) in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there forever, and cover his face that he may 6,7) not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: TO HIM ASCRIBE ALL SIN.

    Then in verse 11; “And the Lord said unto Michael: Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, etc.

    Enoch was the 7th from Adam and Jesus was the 70th from Enoch, (See Luke 3: 23-38.) making Jesus the 11th of the seventh born sons from Adam. 10 completes the cycle, the 11th is the first and beginning of the new cycle. Jesus is the second Adam.
     
  11. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    In response to Deeje's post #9.

    The oldest known Jewish work not included in the canon of Constantine’s universal church, is the Book of Enoch. This is a complex work, the known COPIES of which were written in the third (or perhaps even the late fourth) century BCE, after the return from the Babylonian Exile and the establishment of the Second Jewish Commonwealth (6th-5th centuries BCE) and before the Maccabean revolt in 172 BCE.

    The oldest COPIES of the Book of Enoch, dating from the third century BCE, were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls

    Among the Dead Sea Scrolls were a number of manuscripts of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, including ten manuscripts of the Book of Enoch in the original Aramaic (until then copies were extant only in an Ethiopic translation of a Greek translation of a Semitic original), which were vital to answering many questions about its origins. Dating of the manuscripts by their script shows that certain parts of those COPIES of Enoch are at least as old as the third century BCE.

    I believe, and will later reveal, that there is ample evidence to support the belief that the original Books of Enoch, the latest COPIES of which were discovered among the Dead Sea scrolls, date back much earlier than the 5th century, and that the originals were taken from Egypt, the land of first born, by Moses.

    Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558. The initiated adept, who had successfully passed all the trials, was tied to a cross deep inside a Temple Crypt or cave, he was then drugged and plunged into a deep sleep in which state, in the darkness of the bowels of the earth, he remained for three days and three nights, during which time his spirit=mind, is said to have descended into Hades to communicate with the Gods.

    Moses, who was the adopted grandson of Pharaoh and who would have been afforded the best education in the country, may have been initiated into the circle of the guardians of the sacred secrets.

    Moses took the bread, or the sacred spiritual food of Egypt [The land of First Born] and removed the yeast and gave to the children of Israel the regulations, rules and laws, that the Israelites were to keep for all time. --------- In one of the religious regulations established by Moses, Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel. (See Leviticus 16: 20-21.)
     
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  12. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Continued from Post #11.

    According to 1st Peter 20-21, the water baptism is symbolic of the flood, in which the old body of mankind that had descended from Adam was submerged in the baptismal waters of the world, and the new body of Enoch [The eight survivors in the ark] came up out of those baptismal waters.

    Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives are all genetic descendants of Enoch through his six sons Methusulah, Rigam, Riman, Urchan, Cherminion and Giadad.

    Jesus, in who were the spirits of the righteous who had been gathered to the bosom of Abraham, was resurrected on the first day after the weekly Sabbath that followed the Passover, which is the festival of “First Fruits,” HE was not the first fruit (Singular) but the FIRST FRUITS (Plural) to be harvested from the body of mankind. He was the first of many brothers and sisters, who are to be conformed to the glorious image of God’s only begotten Son, who is the Spirit, that according to our concept of one direction linear time, is still currently developing within the androgynous body of mankind, and who pays the penalty for the sins of the body in which he develops.

    John 1: 12/13; “But as many as received him, (The Light of Man) to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name [I Am Who I Am].”

    And they, like our brother Jesus, who was the first born of the sons of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are born sons of God, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but by the Spirit of the Lord, which descended upon the man Jesus in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say: “You are my son, today I have begotten thee.” [My chosen Heir and Successor.]

    Jesus, is the first to win the victory and to receive a share of the glorious immortal body of light, which is that of our heavenly saviour, which body of light was torn asunder and poured out as fire on the heads of all those who believed his words as spoken through his servant "Jesus" for our salvation.

    In his new glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, He, on the road to Damascus, answered Saul's question, "Who are you Lord?" with these words, "I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute,"

    Acts 3: 13; for the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.

    Jesus, your brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and all the chosen ones who have born the image of the first Adam, shall also bear the IMAGE of the glorified Jesus, "The Second Adam," (in the eternal process of change/evolution, for mankind does not close the chapter in the book of evolution) a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light which is the new Temple of your Lord that is to replace God’s old tabernacle =temporary tent (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation.

    First, "MAN" (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh') in English, mortal human beings) was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh) in English, mortal human beings) WHO IS CROWNED WITH GLORY.

    We have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, who has won the victory and was given divine glory by your heavenly Father and saviour, and is now incontestably divine and sits in the heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites those, who win the victory also, to sit with him in your Father’s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and invisible, which, according to Paul, includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.

    Enoch speaks of the things he saw in his ascent to the 10th heaven:

    “And in that place mine eyes saw the Elect One of righteousness and of faith, and I saw his dwelling place beneath the wings of the Lord of Spirits, and righteousness shall prevail in his days, and the righteous and elect shall be without number before him forever and ever. And all the righteous and elect before him shall be as fiery lights, and their mouths shall be full of blessing. And their lips shall extol the name of the Lord of Spirits, and righteousness before him shall never fail.”

    There I wished to dwell, and my spirit longed for that dwelling place: and henceforth hath been my portion. For so it hath been established concerning me before the Lord of Spirits.--------------On that day Mine Elect One shall sit on the throne of glory and shall try their works, and their places of rest shall be innumerable, and their souls shall grow strong within them when they see Mine elect ones, and those who have called on MY Glorious Name ( my addition; JHWH= Who I Am).

    And the Elect One in those days shall sit on MY THRONE, (It was the spirit of Enoch who descended upon the man Jesus as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my Son (My chosen heir and successor) This Day I have begotten thee) and his mouth shall pour forth all the secrets of wisdom and counsel; for the Lord of Spirits hath given them to him and hath glorified him, etc.

    Then I will cause Mine Elect One to dwell among them. And I will transform the heaven and make it an eternal blessing of Light, and I will transform the earth and make it a blessing: and I will cause Mine elect ones to dwell upon it: but the sinners and evil-doers shall not set foot thereon, for I have provided and satisfied with peace My righteous one.

    Concerning the Elect one of righteousness, Enoch the Prophet has this to say 49: 3; “In him dwells the spirit of wisdom, and the spirit which gives insight, and the spirit of understanding and of might, and ‘THE SPIRITS OF THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.’”

    These are the spirits of Good people who fell asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin and any mistakes that they had made in life, they who were judged as righteous and were separated from the unrighteous dead, and gathered to the evolving living spirit within the bosom of Abraham, which body of righteous Spirits over whom death had no more power, were reborn on earth as the man Jesus, whom Enoch had seen and chosen in his ascent to the ends=beginning of time.

    It was those righteous spirits, whose graves were opened when Jesus, on the cross gave up his spirit as he cried out, “My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?” which righteous spirits, three days later came out of their graves and entered the city and revealed themselves to many, as the risen body of Christ.

    From the Book of Enoch the prophet 108: 11-13; “And now I will summons the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who, in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved My holy name (I Am Who I Am/JHWH,) and I will seat each one on the throne of his honour. And they shall be resplendent for times without number.”
     
  13. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Continued from Post #12.

    Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one" It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah."

    Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 (In days---A calendar year: the one-year old sacrificial Lamb of God.) and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

    Hebrews 11: 5; “By faith Enoch was translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.

    The only man to have ascended to the ends of all time and was translated so as to never see death, and this man, plays absolutely no part in the belief of the Jewish or universal/Catholic church of Constantine: “The Stone that the builder's rejected, has turned out to be the most important stone of all."

    Sandalphon is an archangel in Jewish and Christian writings. Sandalphon figures prominently in the mystical literary traditions of Rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity, notably in the Midrash, Talmud, and Kabbalah.

    Some of the earliest sources on Sandalphon refer to him as the prophet Elijah transfigured and elevated to angelic status. Other sources (mainly from the midrashic period) describe him as the "twin brother" of Metatron, whose human origin as Enoch was similar to the human origin of Sandalphon.

    Sandalphon and Metatron are post human angels, Metatron is the name that was given to Enoch after he had been translated from a body of corruptible matter into a glorious body of incorruptible light, and Sandalphron, who is erroneously thought by some to be Metatron"s twin, is in fact Elijah"s angelic name after he was carried up to stand before Enoch and was also transfigured.

    Metatron is also mentioned in the Pseudepigrapha, most prominently in the Hebrew Book of Enoch (also called Third Enoch), in which his grand title, "the lesser YHVH" (The Son of JHWH) resurfaces. It is also said that Metatron. The anointed one=CHRIST, was the angel who guided Israel through the wilderness.

    After being in the valley of man for three days (Three thousand years) Enoch was reborn of human parents, as the man Jesus.

    “And in that place mine eyes saw the Elect One of righteousness and of faith, and I saw his dwelling place beneath the wings of the Lord of Spirits, and righteousness shall prevail in his days. There I wished to dwell, and my spirit longed for that dwelling place: and henceforth hath been my portion. For so it hath been established concerning me before the Lord of Spirits.-
     
    #13 The Anointed, Jul 26, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    OMG...an avalanche of absolute nonsense :eek:.....believe it if you wish. It's all rubbish to me.

    Do you understand what the Bible canon is?

    "The collection, or list, of books accepted as genuine and inspired Scripture is often referred to as the Bible canon. Originally, the reed (Hebrew, qa·nehʹ) served as a measuring rod if a piece of wood was not at hand. The apostle Paul applied the Greek word ka·nonʹ to a “rule of conduct” as well as to the “territory” measured out as his assignment. So canonical books are those that are true and inspired and worthy to be used as a straightedge in determining the right faith, doctrine, and conduct. If we use books that are not “straight” as a plumb line, our “building” will not be true, and it will fail the test of the Master Surveyor. . . .

    There is no reason to doubt the traditional view that the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures was fixed by the end of the fifth century B.C.E.
    We today list 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures; the traditional Jewish canon, while including these same books, counts them as 24. Some authorities, by putting Ruth with Judges and Lamentations with Jeremiah, counted the number of books as 22, though still holding to exactly the same canonical writings. This made the number of inspired books equal the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet."
    Study Number 4—The Bible and Its Canon — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    I'll just stick with the Bible.....the one God provided to the world, without including the nonsensical book of Enoch. o_O
     
  15. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    I assume that you are referring to the canon of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, the head of which church claims to be Christ on earth, and the shepherd of God's people which was established in the land, after his chosen people had paid him the majestic wage of thirty pieces of silver. See Zechariah 11: 12-17.

    The bible in which Jude of the family of Mary the mother of Jesus, Joseph and James the son of Alphaeus, who is also called Cleophas, the husband of Mary, quotes verbatim from the book of Enoch.

    You have said; "There is no reason to doubt the traditional view that the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures was fixed by the end of the fifth century B.C.E."

    Jerome, who was not a real expert on the Hebrew language translated the Hebrew bible that was still in existence in the fourth century, to Latin in the fourth/firth century C.E. But the Aleppo Codex, the oldest Hebrew bible that has survived to modern times, was created by scribes called Masoretes in Tiberias, Israel around 930 C. E. As such, the Aleppo Codex is considered to be the most authoritative copy of the Hebrew Bible. But the Aleppo Codex is not complete, however, as almost 200 pages went missing between 1947 and 1957.

    Although the Leningrad Codex, which dates back to 1008 C.E. is the oldest complete Hebrew Bible.

    And you reckon that there’s no reason to doubt the traditional view that the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures was fixed by the end of the fifth century before Christ. Yea! Like everyone should believe anything that YOU have to say.

    Isn’t it marvelous that the OT of your Roman canon, which was translated from some unknown Hebrew Bible by Jerome in the fourth century, has many of the same mistakes that are to be found in today’s Hebrew Bible. Sometimes I wonder if it wasn’t translated from Jerome’s Latin translation from an unknown Hebrew translation.

    Your Roman Canon and today’s Hebrew bible, both state in Genesis 11: 12, and 1 Chronicles that Arpachshad is the father of Shelah, whereas the Septuagint, which was a Greek translation by Jews from the Hebrew Bible that still existed some 2 to 3 hundred years before Jesus, states in both Gen and Chron that Arpachshad is the father of Kainan, who according to Luke and the book of Jubilees, is the father of Shelah.

    Both your Roman Canon and today’s Hebrew bible, state that Israel was in the land of Egypt for 430 years to the day, whereas the Septuagint states that Israel was in the land of Canaan AND Egypt for 430 years, which agrees with Paul’s statement in Galatians 3 17; “What I mean is that God made a covenant with Abraham and promised to keep it. The Law, which was given 430 years later, cannot break that covenant and cancel God's promise.”

    The first promise/covenant that God made with Abraham, was, if he would leave his Father’s house and move into the Land of Canaan, he would give that land to him as his inheritance. The Law was given 430 years later through the prophet Moses.

    Abraham was 75 when he moved into Canaan, 25 years later he sired Isaac, the son of God’s promise. When Isaac was 60 he sired Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, who, at the age of 130, entered Egypt with his family, servants, and live-stock. 25+60+130=215 years in the land of Canaan, 215 from 430 when the law was given through Moses=215 years in the land of Egypt.

    I could go on and on about the similarities of today’s Hebrew bible, with Jerome’s erroneous translation, but why bother. You are determined to stick to the limited canon of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, the head of which church claims to be Christ on earth.

    I didn’t think that JW’s were disciples of the anti-Christ.
     
  16. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    So Christians relate and think about Jesus when they see goats? I don't. But goats make cool pets. Why and how would Aaron know all the sins of the people? Sounds like Aaron thought he was God.
     
  17. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Again... as I mentioned before, though we intersect in agreement in so many things, we will never agree with the Book of Enoch, Jubilees et al.

    So, don't know where you want to go from here. Nothing to do with attention spam... maybe your comprehension that we don't intersect hasn't lodged into your understanding? ;)
     
  18. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    It more like an analogy - pictures that God gave to remind people that a Savior was coming. Aaron represented God (high-priest) on the earth. There were three callings that fulfilled the presence of God (or anointing) during the time of the Jewish nations:

    The High priest - Representing the Father - God among men
    The Prophet - Representing Jesus - the Word - They gave the word to the people
    The King - Representing the Holy Spirit - which executed the will of God with power

    it came to fulfillment in the presence of Jesus where the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily
     
  19. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Aaron represented God on the earth???.

    Exodus 4: 14-16; Then the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses and he said, “Is there not Aaron, your brother, the Levite? I know that he can speak well. Behold, he is coming out to meet you, and when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart. 15 You shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth, and I will be with your mouth and with his mouth and will teach you both what to do. 16 He shall speak for you to the people, and he shall be your mouth, and you shall be as God to him.

    If anything, Moses, to who Aaron was his spokesman, would be the representation of God on earth to the Egyptians.
     
  20. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Many times people sought the High Priest to get answers from God. They interceded for the people. They presented the offerings.

    "Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent thepeople in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. New Living Translation Every high priest is a man chosen to represent other people in their dealings with God. He presents their gifts to God and offers sacrifices for their sins."
    Hebrews 5:1 Every high priest is appointed from among men to represent them in matters relating to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.
     
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