Two animals that build, which has greater value?

[BSM1]

First of all why would a beaver ever be able to or want to build a children's hospital. Can you explain that? Second why would you call the beaver dam to be stupid or destructive unless you are completely ignorant about the benefits that their dams have on water availability to the environment in which they live. The fact you use the words stupid reflective of you lack of knowledge and destructive indicating you have absolutely no understanding of the ecological benefits the do is and indication of you ignorance of the ecology of our world.

Oh yeah! Even though I don't want to feed your delusion but I will give you an answer. First of all, beavers can cause tremendous damage by damming water sources that can flood productive land while cutting off water to downstream farm land. Secondly, if this damming is necessary, man can do it more efficiently with less unintended consequences to farmland. Thirdly, if you missed my sarcasm with the hospital barb, then maybe one of us needs to call it a day. Peace out.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Actually humans have ben genocidal against beavers since Europeans came to this country. Killed almost to extinction. The point of this is that I see so many posts about how humans have such greater intelligence that there is this image of superiority in our world. If one looks at it from the aspect of what is good for the planet in terms of quality of life for all living things it places humans in a different perspective. All live has value yet humans have treated other life as if it is worthless, yet in respect to the health of our environment beavers prove more helpful than mankind despite all of our intelligence. There is a tremendous disrespect to other life with a lack of understanding of the value of that life. That is why I started this thread to see the value of something other than just for human needs even though humans benefit from beaver activity. We have underestimated the value of other life on this planet for too long. And the value of something is often with respect to its affect. In this case the effect on the environment. Beavers act on their own values and instincts but in terms of their effect they create a valuable benefit to the environment they occupy. Humans need to learn to appreciate what other life does before it is lost.

This is a pretty good and short video (10 minutes). It discusses some of the details about using beavers as a 'Watershed restoration tool'. There are other more detailed videos, too. I remember watching something very good, and if I find it again I will try to post it here.

 

[Bear Wild]

This is a pretty good and short video (10 minutes). It discusses some of the details about using beavers as a 'Watershed restoration tool'. There are other more detailed videos, too. I remember watching something very good, and if I find it again I will try to post it here.

Thanks for the video and for appreciating beavers. Just leave it to Beaver.

 

[Bear Wild]

Oh yeah! Even though I don't want to feed your delusion but I will give you an answer. First of all, beavers can cause tremendous damage by damming water sources that can flood productive land while cutting off water to downstream farm land. Secondly, if this damming is necessary, man can do it more efficiently with less unintended consequences to farmland. Thirdly, if you missed my sarcasm with the hospital barb, then maybe one of us needs to call it a day. Peace out.

Again you demonstrate you lack of knowledge about the affect of beavers have on the land. Fortunately a few are starting to realize our mistake as in the example of what happened in Nevada during a severe drought. The only ranch that had adequate water for its life stock was the one that promoted beavers on their land accepting some of the consequences occur but thankful for the ultimate benefit. Washington states loss of agriculture due to dropping water tables and resulting fires from the rapid run off of mountain streams from the loss of beaver activity. The fishing industry also benefits from beaver activity in creating cooler water temperatures and spawning grounds.
So you hospital comment was just a useless barb. Here I thought you believed beavers could actually build a hospital. So good to know you are aware they cannot.

 

[Bear Wild]

I just read an entertaining book called Martin Marten that showed how rich the world of the marten was alongside that of the human world of a young adolescent Martin.

The views I stated before were just devil's advocate thoughts. I am sure that I would find much to appreciate about the ecological, systemic contribution of beavers were I read to read that book. I have, in fact, added it to one of my Amazon Wish Lists for consideration for future reading.

Thanks!

Thanks for the suggestion on the book, always looking for more to learn and I will be sure to read it. I do not want to condemn humans as much as I want them to be more aware of the importance of the rest of the living world. Seems to be a theme of mine.

 

[Revoltingest]

Now if we can just get those pesky beavers to build a children's hospital....

 

[Jollybear]

Compare two animals in our world. Both build but, one when they build improves the environment for life, increases water resources, and increases biodiversity supporting all forms of life. The other builds but at the expense of other life with no respect for other life, wasting recourses leaving a lifeless wasted world behind. Which animal has more value to our world the Beaver or the Human?
I recommend reading the book" Eager: The Surprising, Secret Life of Beavers and Why They Matter" by Ben Goldfar and then relook at what really matters. Are humans intelligent enough to respect the natural world.

Theres some humans who are wasteful and some who are not. Your op is oversimplified.

 

[sealchan]

Thanks for the suggestion on the book, always looking for more to learn and I will be sure to read it. I do not want to condemn humans as much as I want them to be more aware of the importance of the rest of the living world. Seems to be a theme of mine.

If so then you may very, very much like Martin Marten by Brian Doyle.

 

[Bear Wild]

Theres some humans who are wasteful and some who are not. Your op is oversimplified.

Actually not when you understand the changes in the land especially in the west when originally seen before beavers were eliminated and after the change is surprisingly dramatic and only a few biologists and citizens who understand the benefits of beavers are standing up to the continuing slaughter of beavers in the US. Yes there are humans striving to correct the ecological catastrophe that is occurring but apparently two few so it is not oversimplified when viewed in what is actually happening.

 

[We Never Know]

Compare two animals in our world. Both build but, one when they build improves the environment for life, increases water resources, and increases biodiversity supporting all forms of life. The other builds but at the expense of other life with no respect for other life, wasting recourses leaving a lifeless wasted world behind. Which animal has more value to our world the Beaver or the Human?
I recommend reading the book" Eager: The Surprising, Secret Life of Beavers and Why They Matter" by Ben Goldfar and then relook at what really matters. Are humans intelligent enough to respect the natural world.

I choose beavers. Here's an interesting read on wolves.

Wolves Change Ecosystem and Geography in Yellowstone

 

[nPeace]

Since animals seem to be instinctively wise, then it seems apparent to me, their wisdom must come from a source.
I believe that source is described in the Bible, as the creator God.
So the animal seem connected by spirit to the creator.
Hence, it makes sense that humans tapping into this wisdom, would act responsibly to protect the environment, and the animals - including beavers.

 

[Shad]

Compare two animals in our world. Both build but, one when they build improves the environment for life, increases water resources, and increases biodiversity supporting all forms of life. The other builds but at the expense of other life with no respect for other life, wasting recourses leaving a lifeless wasted world behind. Which animal has more value to our world the Beaver or the Human?
I recommend reading the book" Eager: The Surprising, Secret Life of Beavers and Why They Matter" by Ben Goldfar and then relook at what really matters. Are humans intelligent enough to respect the natural world.

Humans as we are the only ones capable of assign value to X

 

[Bear Wild]

I choose beavers. Here's an interesting read on wolves.

Wolves Change Ecosystem and Geography in Yellowstone

This phenomena is well presented in the book "Eager" and the change in Yellowstone and some surrounding areas seems to be the combination of wolves and beavers, one limiting vegetation loss from hoofed consumers (Bison may be an exception) and one increasing the water availability for both plant an animal. Both contribute to diversity thus showing the complex interactions. Very amazing.

 

[Bear Wild]

Humans as we are the only ones capable of assign value to X

Doesn't that depend on the equation. My ability to assign a value to X declined when the calculus equation complexity increased.

 

[Shad]

Doesn't that depend on the equation. My ability to assign a value to X declined when the calculus equation complexity increased.

No as only humans assign value to anything

 

[Bear Wild]

No as only humans assign value to anything

I disagree animals assign value to many things and have understanding of numbers and quantity. They do not have a written mathematical language but what does that matter. Solving for X has not improved how we treat our environment and has not helped in improving the quality of life for other life.

 

[We Never Know]

This phenomena is well presented in the book "Eager" and the change in Yellowstone and some surrounding areas seems to be the combination of wolves and beavers, one limiting vegetation loss from hoofed consumers (Bison may be an exception) and one increasing the water availability for both plant an animal. Both contribute to diversity thus showing the complex interactions. Very amazing.

According to my link, it's the wolves that even brought the beaver back to thriving. Nature has a balance and humans only interupt and screw that balance up.

 

[Brickjectivity]

According to my link, it's the wolves that even brought the beaver back to thriving. Nature has a balance and humans only interupt and screw that balance up.

Right! I forgot it was the wolves.

Yes we must find ways to preserve species and prevent extinctions. This talk of nature's balance is too rosy to me and especially the description of humans as a mere interruption. Its not nature that is trying to save the beavers. The beavers are trying to save the beavers from nature -- which is trying to kill them not save them. Nature is trying to kill both them and us. In this case nature is trying to use us to kill off the beavers. I know people like to say "Mother Nature" which sounds very sweet, but that is not at all how it is. Nature has no mercy and will kill us all some day if we don't build up the technology to save ourselves from the next extinction level event which could come in the form of disease or mutations or geological problems. No we are not mere disruptions in the natural process. The natural process involves random extinction level events -- which we are trying to avoid.

 

[ecco]

All species are self-limiting. If too many lions eat too many gazelles there are not enough gazelles to feed the larger prides of lions and some lions starve reducing their numbers.

It is no different for beavers or humans.

Beaver populations have fallen and risen.

Human populations, for the most part, have only risen. Thus far.

 

[Thief]

Human populations, for the most part, have only risen. Thus far.

and this planet has sufficient resource for 9billion humans

almost there

and then the chaos begins