Two Amazon workers quit over harmful book on transgender people

[Kooky]

And they have a special right to never have their views challenged?

How could you challenge somebody's first hand experience of what their own life is like?

Are you God or Devil, capable of seeing into men's hearts, knowing them better than they know themselves?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

How could you challenge somebody's first hand experience of what their own life is like?

Of course you can - you are being ridiculous.

I could share all my spiritual experiences with you - about talking to the Lord and seeing angels - and you don't think you have the right to challenge my claims?

Sure - you couldn't claim it didn't happen - but you could challenge me by saying that I only believed that it happened.

If a man believes they are a woman - I have every right to challenge that claim. Just because they believe they are does not make it so.

And if I want to write a book about it - I can - and anyone who wants to stop me is a fascist.

Are you God or Devil, capable of seeing into men's hearts, knowing them better than they know themselves?

No - you are being ridiculous.

 

[Kooky]

Of course you can - you are being ridiculous.

I could share all my spiritual experiences with you - about talking to the Lord and seeing angels - and you don't think you have the right to challenge my claims?

Is your actual argument that living as a gay person should be seen as analogous to seeing supernatural beings that are only attested in religious scripture?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Is your actual argument that living as a gay person should be seen as analogous to seeing supernatural beings that are only attested in religious scripture?

No - the book in question is about transgenderism - not homosexuality.

A transgender person believes they are a member of the opposite sex.

It is a belief - and any belief can be challenged and criticized.

 

[Kooky]

No - the book in question is about transgenderism - not homosexuality.

A transgender person believes they are a member of the opposite sex.

It is a belief - and any belief can be challenged and criticized.

So your argument is that being transgender should be seen as analogous to seeing supernatural beings that are only attested in religious scripture.

Can you actually support with facts or evidence why you think the lived experiences of transgender people are invalid and must be dismissed as delusional fancies, rather than as authorities on living one's life as transgender?

And can you support why you think we must give credence to people who claim authority on the same subject without even the slightest shred of expertise or lived experience?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

So your argument is that being transgender should be seen as analogous to seeing supernatural beings that are only attested in religious scripture.

No - beliefs can be about anything.

I referenced my beliefs - which are about God and angels - because that is my "lived experience".

Can you actually support with facts or evidence why you think the lived experiences of transgender people are invalid and must be dismissed as delusional fancies, rather than as authorities on living one's life as transgender?

They are not members of the biological sex with which they claim membership.

That is the only fact needed.

And can you support why you think we must give credence to people who claim authority on the same subject without even the slightest shred of expertise or lived experience?

Allowing people to speak does not "give credence" to what they say or make them an authority on any subject.

Yet - they should have the right to speak.

Otherwise - how could you ever come to discredit their ideas?

Silencing opposing opinions does no one any favors.

 

[Kooky]

No - beliefs can be about anything.

I referenced my beliefs - which are about God and angels - because that is my "lived experience".

And your feelings, your experiences, and the effects they have on you and your life are undoubtedly real, regardless of whether the things you experience are factually grounded in verifiable supernatural phenomena.

Or should we assume that your experiences and emotions aren't real, and aren't really part of you?
Would you rather we deny that you actually lived your life?

Should we treat you, your experiences and emotions as figments of my imagination, and you as fake and your experiences as nothing but pretense, performance, and lies crafted to instigate particular emotions in an audience?


Is that the position you are going to take in this discussion?
That experiences and emotions aren't real and can be trivially dismissed as nonsense follies?

Allowing people to speak does not "give credence" to what they say or make them an authority on any subject.

You do give credence to what anti-trans charlatans say and consider them an authority on the subject of living as a trans person, do you not? So clearly, expertise and experience mean nothing at all to you - it's all just "belief", and equally inconsequential because it all comes down to how our ideas make us feel, not whether they have any traction with factually existing people's lives.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Allowing people to speak does not "give credence" to what they say or make them an authority on any subject.

You seem to not want to acknowledge that science is involved and has revealed the brains of someone who is transgender more resembles the brain of their identified sex tham their birth sex. That's not a belief, that is a fact.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

And your feelings, your experiences, and the effects they have on you and your life are undoubtedly real, regardless of whether the things you experience are factually grounded in verifiable supernatural phenomena.

No - for anyone other than me - there will always be doubt. Should always be doubt - because I cannot prove my experiences to you or anyone.

Or should we assume that your experiences and emotions aren't real, and aren't really part of you?

It doesn't matter that you or anyone else "assumes" - I'm going to believe what I believe.

And if I want to write a book about my experiences - I am free to do so.

And if you want to write a book claiming that it is impossible to have such experiences - you are free to do so.

Would you rather we deny that you actually lived your life?

What are you even talking about?

My not agreeing that a man can become a woman is not denying anyone their life.

Should we treat you, your experiences and emotions as figments of my imagination, and you as fake and your experiences as nothing but pretense, performance, and lies crafted to instigate particular emotions in an audience?

Why are we talking about how we should treat people? That hasn't been the topic.

I believe that everyone is a son or daughter of God and that the Lord Jesus Christ died for us all - because He loved us all - so I am going to start by loving everyone.

That does not mean - however - that I have to agree with everyone.

And that does not mean that I cannot write a book explaining why I disagree with them.

Is that the position you are going to take in this discussion?

You got lost somewhere.

That experiences and emotions aren't real and can be trivially dismissed as nonsense follies?

You most certainly can claim that someone's experiences are not real and you can dismiss them. That is up to you.

And emotions don't really have anything to do with objective biological reality.

You do give credence to what anti-trans charlatans say and consider them an authority on the subject of living as a trans person, do you not?

I can't even name an "anti-trans charlatan" - but I'd assume that they would be any and all politically neutral biologists.

So clearly, expertise and experience mean nothing at all to you - it's all just "belief", and equally inconsequential because it all comes down to how our ideas make us feel, not whether they have any traction with factually existing people's lives.

You can't make up a fantastical field of study and a bunch of nonsense words and then claim you have an "expertise".

I don't care if a man wants to live his life as a woman - but I do start to care if he wants to police my speech, try to change what is taught to my children about biology and if he wants to take a deuce next to my daughter in the women's restroom.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

You seem to not want to acknowledge that science is involved and has revealed the brains of someone who is transgender more resembles the brain of their identified sex tham their birth sex. That's not a belief, that is a fact.

Even if this were true - why do you believe it matters?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Even if this were true - why do you believe it matters?

It is true, and it has been observed in many brains.
It matters because it means there is a biological basis for the identity claims of someone with gender dysphoria.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

It is true, and it has been observed in many brains.
It matters because it means there is a biological basis for the identity claims of someone with gender dysphoria.

Yet - this "biological basis" would not make any man a woman or a woman a man.

There have always been more feminine males and more masculine females throughout human history - but that does not mean that any man can become a woman or vice versa.

The guy who believes the lamp is talking to him may have a discernible "pink kink in his think" that makes him believe what he does - but that does not mean that the lamp is literally talking to him.

Are you arguing that the lamp is literally talking to him because there is a "biological basis" for why he believes the lamp is talking to him?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There have always been more feminine males and more masculine females throughout human history - but that does not mean that any man can become a woman or vice versa.

That's not the same thing.

Are you arguing that the lamp is literally talking to him

 

[Fallen Prophet]

That's not the same thing.

These aren't very compelling arguments.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

These aren't very compelling arguments.

A lamp literally talking to someone isn't very compelling either.
The others, behaviors and gender identity aren't the same. Like effeminate gay men who are men and identity as men. Or masculine straight women who are women and identify as women. That's an entirely different thing from someone who is born female but identifies as male.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

A lamp literally talking to someone isn't very compelling either.

Sure it is.

Understanding why a man believes the lamp is talking to him doesn't prove that the lamp is literally talking to him.

Understanding why a man believes they are a woman doesn't prove that he is a woman.

Both of these men have a "biological basis" for their confusion.

The others, behaviors and gender identity aren't the same. Like effeminate gay men who are men and identity as men. Or masculine straight women who are women and identify as women. That's an entirely different thing from someone who is born female but identifies as male.

It doesn't matter.

A woman is not a man. Can never be a man. Will never know what it is like to be a man - so logically could never identify as such.

Us coming to understand why a woman identifies as a man (pink kink in their think) doesn't magically make that woman a man.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sure it is.

Understanding why a man believes the lamp is talking to him doesn't prove that the lamp is literally talking to him.

Understanding why a man believes they are a woman doesn't prove that he is a woman.

Both of these men have a "biological basis" for their confusion.

Assuming you're trying [desperately] to tie this to schizophrenia, there is the genetic component for this disorder but there is nothing that makes the lamp talking real. With transgender people what we find is their brain looks more like the sex as they identify than they were born as.
We also see with schizophrenia that general functioning drastically decreases as someone has and follows hallucinations. With gender dysphoria what we find is generally people improve with transitioning.
So, yes, it is a very uncompelling question. That strongly demonstrates an ignorance of the subject. Your "pink kink" all but proves it.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Assuming you're trying [desperately] to tie this to schizophrenia, there is the genetic component for this disorder but there is nothing that makes the lamp talking real.

No - I am not trying to compare gender dysphoria to schizophrenia.

I was merely pointing out that understanding why a person is confused does not mean they are any less confused.

What a person perceives about the world or themselves is not necessarily reality.

With transgender people what we find is their brain looks more like the sex as they identify than they were born as.

In what ways?

And even if this were true - I still don't see how it could be used to argue that they are in fact the sex or gender they claim to be.

We also see with schizophrenia that general functioning drastically decreases as someone has and follows hallucinations.

The same is true of transgender people.

Any and all people who "transition" lose the ability to procreate. To function as other men and women would.

And that is not to mention all the health risks associated with hormone replacement.

And the depression and rate of suicidality that often accompany their confusion.

With gender dysphoria what we find is generally people improve with transitioning.

"Improve"? In what way? How is that measured?

I know that transitioning does not affect the rate of suicidality.

So, yes, it is a very uncompelling question. That strongly demonstrates an ignorance of the subject. Your "pink kink" all but proves it.

It is never good to encourage someone to follow their delusions. Never.

It will always lead to disappointment and suffering.

 

[metis]

Why are some people seemingly totally obsessed with whom goes to be with whom as long as it's consensual or what sex they believe they are? Frankly, such an obsession seems quite perverted to me.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I was merely pointing out that understanding why a person is confused does not mean they are any less confused.

Gender dysphoria isn't a state of confusion.

In what ways?

The structures of the brain are shaped more like as we see in members of the sex a transgender person identifies as rather than a brain more shaped like the individual's birth sex.
You can deny, but it had been revealed this is the case even before hormone therapy.

The same is true of transgender people.

It is not and the data does not support your claim.

I know that transitioning does not affect the rate of suicidality.

It actually does reduce it. This has been well documented. As has a clinical emphasis on how societal prejudice is the root of many problems transgender people face.