Turkey: Erdoğan signs executive order to leave Istanbul Convention on violence against women

[Shakeel]

Denying the previous post. (Technically you you didn't say that it was problematic, only that it was probably problematic. But that is part of the tactic, never get caught in

The post I quoted when saying "I didn't say it was problematic" asked "what is problematic about a convention on violence targeting women".

And again not directly objecting to the conference while maintaining it is probably problematic.

I didn't read it.

And all while never naming what might be problematic or how it contradicts Islam.

They usually call for equality and extra rights for women, but again, I didn't read it.

You try to signal to the westerners that you aren't against protecting women from violence (because that would leave you (and Islam) in a bad light to the westerners) while in the same sentence dog-whistling to the Muslim that violence against women is A-OK (because in their view it is).

I'm sorry if that's the only type of "signal" your brain can receive. What you're doing is taking what I say out of context and expect me to defend myself against the false assertions you make about me, but I'm not interested.

 

[Shakeel]

One of the 10 Commandments in the Bible is to honor one's mother and father. So, yes, it's a Western value. (It's also a Hindu value which makes it

There's nothing biblical about western values. Middle Eastern men and women treat their parents definitely much better than westerners on average. I think westerners, on average, treat their parents poorly, to say the least.

 

[Heyo]

I'm sorry if that's the only type of "signal" your brain can receive. What you're doing is taking what I say out of context and expect me to defend myself against the false assertions you make about me, but I'm not interested.

I didn't want to make it about you, it was just that your posts were a good example. But lets switch to an example were we are not personally invested:

Note that this is a summary. In the original debate, Richard Dawkins needed 15 minutes to get an answer out of Dr. Mukadam. Dr. Mukadam was not interested in defending the teachings of the Qur'an but to make it acceptable to the western audience by lying by ommission.

 

[danieldemol]

The question is, why do westerners insist everyone should be like them?

Whilst we don't insist you should be like us in every respect, many of us do insist on empathy with and compassion for women.

And the reason why (speaking for myself) is that societies based on the rule of treating others how one wishes to be treated seem to be fairer more just societies.

Why don't you want to consider women equal to you, and what are these extra rights you dont want them to have?

 

[Shakeel]

I didn't want to make it about you, it was just that your posts were a good example. But lets switch to an example were we are not personally invested:

Note that this is a summary. In the original debate, Richard Dawkins needed 15 minutes to get an answer out of Dr. Mukadam. Dr. Mukadam was not interested in defending the teachings of the Qur'an but to make it acceptable to the western audience by lying by ommission.

Difficult to say what is happening since there seems to be a lot of editing involved, but to me it looks like Mr. Dawkins was purposefully deflecting because Dr. Mukadam was making a perfectly valid argument that Mr. Dawkins could not deny.

 

[Shakeel]

Whilst we don't insist you should be like us in every respect, many of us do insist on empathy with and compassion for women.

And can you show where Islam denies that from them?

And the reason why (speaking for myself) is that societies based on the rule of treating others how one wishes to be treated seem to be fairer more just societies.

You mean where men and women want to be treated the same way? You know, devout Muslim men don't want to be treated like women and devote Muslim women don't want to be treated like men. Islam gives them the best place to be in regards to how they are treated. Which is why you see none of them asking for what you try to force on them.

Why don't you want to consider women equal to you, and what are these extra rights you dont want them to have?

It isn't about what I want. There is no gender equality in Islam, Christianity or Judaism. They aren't equal and no matter how hard you pretend they are, they just aren't. Muslim men and women have the rights and the obligations that Islam gave them.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Difficult to say what is happening since there seems to be a lot of editing involved, but to me it looks like Mr. Dawkins was purposefully deflecting because Dr. Mukadam was making a perfectly valid argument that Mr. Dawkins could not deny.

Since it is both inconsistent and absurd to claim that a religion is peaceful while simulatenously believing it condones killing those who leave it, no, Dawkins wasn't deflecting at all. He just cut to the chase and used a direct and simple point to undermine the extremist imam's dishonest and inconsistent argument that brushed aside such an inhumane belief (the death penalty for apostasy).

 

[Debater Slayer]

They usually call for equality and extra rights for women, but again, I didn't read it

So we are to believe "equality and extra rights for women" are problematic according to your religious beliefs, correct?

Do you see why many non-Muslims view many conservative Islamic beliefs on gender and women's rights as abusive and unjust?

 

[Shakeel]

Since it is both inconsistent and absurd to claim that a religion is peaceful while simulatenously it condones killing those who leave it,

No it isn't. That's just your opinion that has been imprinted in you in your society.
Doesn't have anything to do with facts.

He just cut to the chase and used a direct and simple point to undermine the extremist imam's dishonest and inconsistent argument that brushed aside such an inhumane belief (the death penalty for apostasy).

Me, I thought the Muslim was talking about how each has a right to raise their children their own way. I don't see what apostasy has to do with that.

So we are to believe "equality and extra rights for women" are problemati

Like I said, there is no equality in Islam, Christianity or Judaism.

Do you see why many non-Muslims view many conservative Islamic beliefs on gender and women's rights as abusive and unjus

Yes. It comes from their cultural assumptions. Not my problem.

 

[Debater Slayer]

No it isn't. That's just your opinion that has been imprinted in you in your society.
Doesn't have anything to do with facts.

My society is an Arab, Muslim-majority one. You're assuming my beliefs stem from society rather than my own reasoning and reading.

But let's turn this around: By what metric can't we also say that your beliefs are simply imprinted on you by religion and that they have nothing to do with facts, especially when you say they should be imposed on those seeking to deconvert by defending the death penalty for them?

Me, I thought the Muslim was talking about how each has a right to raise their children their own way. I don't see what apostasy has to do with that.

Trying to paint a specific version of a religion as peaceful when it states that deconverts should be killed is inconsistent and indicative of a morally twisted view of "peaceful." I think that was the point Dawkins wanted to highlight with his question that revealed the imam's extremism and whitewashing.

Like I said, there is no equality in Islam, Christianity or Judaism.

In your beliefs or interpretations about them, maybe, but there are millions of Muslims, Christians, and Jews who disagree with you... thankfully.

Yes. It comes from their cultural assumptions. Not my problem.

Good thing logical reasoning is culturally blind. If it takes a specific kind of culture to convince someone that violence against women and killing apostates are bad things, then we have reached an unfortunate level of disregard for human rights and basic freedoms.

 

[Shakeel]

My society is an Arab, Muslim-majority one. You're assuming my beliefs stem from society rather than my own reasoning and reading.

In that case, either your society isn't a good Muslim society or your ideas stem from the people outside your society who affected you. The west is certainly trying to infect all parts of the world with their evil ways.

By what metric can't we also say that your beliefs are simply imprinted on you by religion and that they have nothing to do with facts

Go ahead.

especially when you say they should be imposed on those seeking to deconvert by defending the death penalty for them?

Defending? It doesn't need defending. It's Islamic law.

Trying to paint a specific version of a religion as peaceful it states that deconverts should be killed is inconsistent and indicative of a morally twisted view of "peaceful." I think that was the point Dawkins wanted to highlight with his question that revealed the imam's extremism and whitewashing.

I have no idea what they were talking about. I'm not trying to "paint Islam as peaceful". What does one mean by peaceful? I don't think of America as peaceful at all. They wage war everywhere.

revealed the imam's extremism

extremism? You mean, he doesn't think like you? That way extreme?

In your beliefs or interpretations about them

Just reading the bible doesn't leave anything unclear and are such people really Christian (followers of Jesus) and Jews?

Good thing logical reasoning is culturally blind.

Kind of, maybe, but your reasoning isn't logical.

 

[Heyo]

And can you show where Islam denies that from them?

You mean where men and women want to be treated the same way? You know, devout Muslim men don't want to be treated like women and devote Muslim women don't want to be treated like men. Islam gives them the best place to be in regards to how they are treated. Which is why you see none of them asking for what you try to force on them.

It isn't about what I want. There is no gender equality in Islam, Christianity or Judaism. They aren't equal and no matter how hard you pretend they are, they just aren't. Muslim men and women have the rights and the obligations that Islam gave them.

I applaud that you found the courage to speak out for Islam instead of trying to appease us non-Muslim. I totally oppose your opinion but I like the open discussion where each side presents its points.

Judaism and Christianity have, except for a fundamentalist minority, evolved to a more humanistic world view. Every civilized country in the west has abolished corporal and capital punishment and even our last theocracy agrees to that.

Islamic theocracies and countries with Muslim majorities have still to go that step or accept to be seen as medieval. And, more than that, Muslims living in the west have to accept western law if not western values.

 

[Debater Slayer]

In that case, either your society isn't a good Muslim society or your ideas stem from the people outside your society who affected you. The west is certainly trying to infect all parts of the world with their evil ways.

It seems that, for some reason, you can't see or acknowledge the idea that some people change their beliefs by reading, learning, and thinking about different topics. Indoctrination and societal influence aren't the only reasons people change their views.

Defending? It doesn't need defending. It's Islamic law.

So what? Any law, Islamic or not, needs to make sense and be humane or be criticized as unnecessary or harmful.

I have no idea what they were talking about. I'm not trying to "paint Islam as peaceful". What does one mean by peaceful? I don't think of America as peaceful at all. They wage war everywhere.

I don't think of it as peaceful either, but that's a red herring. We're talking about Islam, not America.

extremism? You mean, he doesn't think like you? That way extreme?

No, extremist as in believing those who deconvert from his religion deserve to be put to death. That's literally akin to the mafia, not a peaceful worldview.

Just reading the bible doesn't leave anything unclear and are such people really Christian (followers of Jesus) and Jews?

Many would disagree with you both on the clarity of the Bible and whether or not they're Christians and Jews. That they don't subscribe to conservative intepretations of their scriptures doesn't necessarily mean they aren't indeed Christian or Jewish.

 

[danieldemol]

And can you show where Islam denies that from them?

Not without you being specific on which "extra rights for women" you object to, as there are differing interpretations of Islam, so i would have to make assumptions about your beliefs since your not being very transparent about them

You mean where men and women want to be treated the same way? You know, devout Muslim men don't want to be treated like women and devote Muslim women don't want to be treated like men. Islam gives them the best place to be in regards to how they are treated. Which is why you see none of them asking for what you try to force on them.

Where practical *and* where they wish to be treated the same women should be treated the same as men. Of course if they don't wish to be treated the same then I don't see how a convention against violence against women forces them to be treated equally. What i see the convention objecting to is allowing men to treat women without compassion and empathy where they do wish to be treated with such compassion and empathy, in other words, opposing it looks like allowing force to happen, not preventing it. I think you have it back to front if you think this forces devout women into situations they don't want to be in.

It isn't about what I want. There is no gender equality in Islam, Christianity or Judaism.

So what if there isn't gender equality in the interpretations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam that you recognise?

They aren't equal and no matter how hard you pretend they are, they just aren't.

What makes you think women are not equal to men?

Muslim men and women have the rights and the obligations that Islam gave them.

The problem is, you seem to want to force your ideas about what Islam is onto all Muslims, and wider than that onto all Turks regardless of whether they are Muslim or not. The convention on women's rights gives such rights to all those women who want them, it doesn't force it onto those who doesn't want them. If there is a woman who enjoys being beaten by her husband she can still consent to it as far as I can tell. Only 17% of Turks objected to the convention.

 

[Shakeel]

I applaud that you found the courage to speak out for Islam instead of trying to appease us non-Muslim. I totally oppose your opinion but I like the open discussion where each side presents its points.

Judaism and Christianity have, except for a fundamentalist minority, evolved to a more humanistic world view. Every civilized country in the west has abolished corporal and capital punishment and even our last theocracy agrees to that.

Islamic theocracies and countries with Muslim majorities have still to go that step or accept to be seen as medieval. And, more than that, Muslims living in the west have to accept western law if not western values.

For there to be courage, there would need to be fear. I have never feared speaking about Islam. I am proud to be a Muslim.

Judaism and Christianity have not evolved. They have been corrupted and people no longer follow them.

If people were honest, they would acknowledge that, but then that would be criticising them for not practicing their religion and most don't want them to practice their religions. Hence they speak as if the corruption of Christianity and Judaism was honest development — to appease them.

Your personal opinion of legal punishments is not relevant.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Probably a western type of a convention. They're often problematic. The question is, why do westerners insist everyone should be like them?

You think that's what this is about?

 

[Shakeel]

It seems that, for some reason, you can't see or acknowledge the idea that some people change their beliefs by reading, learning, and thinking about different topics. Indoctrination and societal influence aren't the only reasons people change their views.

Don't you know that books are written to influence you? It would highly arrogant to read a book and assume you arrived to your conclusions about the topic all by yourself. Furthermore, if you opinions coincide with the opinions prevalent in the west in 2020, it is illogical to imply you, again, arrived to them all by yourself with no outside influence.

So what? Any law, Islamic or not, needs to make sense and be humane or be criticized as unnecessary or harmful.

Islamic law makes sense. Humane is your invented metric by which you judge everything that doesn't feel good in your heart. But, you are free to criticise it, as you can see. But you should know, those of us who believe in it, are not moved by your futile objections.

I don't think of it as peaceful either, but that's a red herring. We're tal

I asked, what does one mean by peaceful?

No, extremist as in believing those who deconvert from his religion deserve to be put to death. That's literally akin to the mafia, not a peaceful worldview.

That would be a Muslim.

Again, what is peaceful?

Many would disagree with you both on the clarity of the Bib

I say they are either ignorant of what is in the Bible or liars. The Bible is clear in the matters they deny.

That they don't subscribe to conservative intepretations of their scriptures doesn't necessarily mean they aren't indeed Christian or Jewish.

Let the Bible decide that.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

1 John 2:3-6 "And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

And so on.

You think that's what this is about?

Not only that, but it's always in the background.

 

[Heyo]

Judaism and Christianity have not evolved. They have been corrupted and people no longer follow them.

Call it corruption or call it evolution, fact is that our morals and laws have changed and we have embraced that change. Islam, otoh, is morally and legally still in the 7th century. Preferences I guess; I like the 21st century.
And last time I checked there were still more Christians on Earth than Muslims. Not that I find that to be positive but your statement is simply false.

If people were honest, they would acknowledge that, but then that would be criticising them for not practicing their religion and most don't want them to practice their religions. Hence they speak as if the corruption of Christianity and Judaism was honest development — to appease them.

Western people don't even have to care if someone is practising her/his religion for we have developed the principle of separation of church and state. Everyone is allowed to practise their religion however much they want - as long as they respect the law of the land.

Your personal opinion of legal punishments is not relevant.

It's not my personal opinion, it's the law.

 

[Shakeel]

And last time I checked there were still more Christians on Earth than Muslims. Not that I find that to be positive but your statement is simply false.

You always argue against things that haven't been said. I didn't say there are no Christians or Jews. I said Christianity is no longer practiced according to the Bible. There may be a marginal amount of exceptions, but I'm not sure about that.

Western people don't even have to care if someone is practising her/his religion for we have developed the principle of separation of church and state.

But you care.

Everyone is allowed to practise their religion however much they want - as long as they respect the law of the land

Yet, it is clear the western societies do not support the practice of any of the three religions. It is simply in the way of their immoral habits.

It's not my personal opinion, it's the law.

It is your personal opinion and the law in some places. So what? What makes your law better? Can you reason? The capital punishment in Sharia is also the law.

 

[Heyo]

You always argue against things that haven't been said. I didn't say there are no Christians or Jews. I said Christianity is no longer practiced according to the Bible. There may be a marginal amount of exceptions, but I'm not sure about that.

The Bible is a collection of about 66 books (the exact number depends on who you ask). It supports any position and the opposite of that. So every denomination will say that their principles are backed by the bible.
And it seems that the same can be said about the Qur'an.

But you care.

Only about illegal or immoral practises, and I'd even let immoral practices slide if only consenting adults are involved and an intervention would be worse than the practise.

Yet, it is clear the western societies do not support the practice of any of the three religions. It is simply in the way of their immoral habits.

They do even support or tolerate practises that would be illegal if not done in a religious context. E.g. male genital mutilation has an exception for religious context.

It is your personal opinion and the law in some places. So what? What makes your law better? Can you reason? The capital punishment in Sharia is also the law.

It is not only the law in some places, it is also an universal right according to the UN. A document ratified by almost all nations. Some have implemented those rights in their laws, others are dragging their feet since 1948.
The reasons are widely known: capital punishment doesn't work as a deterrent, it can't be undone in case of judicial error, it contradicts the unalienable right to life and, at least in halfway functioning democracies, it is more expensive.