Tunisian Scholar: Homosexuality Accepted in Early Islam

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well-known Professor Amel Grami points out that early Islamic sources accepted homosexuals as part of a pluralistic tradition that has disappeared from modern Islamist thought.

http://www.clarionproject.org/videos/tunisian-scholar-homosexuality-accepted-early-islam

Makes sense to me and is not unexpected. Much of modern Islam has really lost the plot. But there is hope.

 

[Debater Slayer]

In before someone accuses him of distorting Islam or trying to satisfy the "West."

It seems to me that you can only polish an old lamp so much. If you try to polish it quite hard, you will either miraculously summon a servant genie or you will contract tetanus from the rust. Sometimes you just have to accept that it is time to replace the lamp or drop it altogether.

 

[RedDragon94]

Well-known Professor Amel Grami points out that early Islamic sources accepted homosexuals as part of a pluralistic tradition that has disappeared from modern Islamist thought.

http://www.clarionproject.org/videos/tunisian-scholar-homosexuality-accepted-early-islam

Makes sense to me and is not unexpected. Much of modern Islam has really lost the plot. But there is hope.

You interested in Islam SF?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You interested in Islam SF?

Yes. I'm reading the Qur'an and studying the religion. I like it's view of God. Makes a ton more sense than Christianity, imo.

 

[RedDragon94]

Yes. I'm reading the Qur'an and studying the religion. I like it's view of God. Makes a ton more sense than Christianity, imo.

I've read a little of the Quran it's just the first chapter is so long... Islam is an interesting religion, it's just too bad it's been hijacked by certain political powers.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hmm... it is possible that it was allowed before the verses of homosexuality were revealed. Those verses of course speak of the homosexual intercourse as a sin, not being a homosexual in nature.

Since Islam came in revelations and stages, it is possible that at some point that homosexual intercourse was not considered a sin.

The video is blocked here at work. I'll have a look at it when I get back home.

 

[cambridge79]

In before someone accuses him of distorting Islam or trying to satisfy the "West."

every religion bend his text as much as they want, as long as there are enough people willing to accept such bendings. The popes have been able to turn "love your enemy" in go and conquer and kill the infidels for centuries and nobody cared.

 

[MARCELLO]

Religions were milleniums ago but people of them are lively here.

 

[FearGod]

Hmm... it is possible that it was allowed before the verses of homosexuality were revealed. Those verses of course speak of the homosexual intercourse as a sin, not being a homosexual in nature.

Since Islam came in revelations and stages, it is possible that at some point that homosexual intercourse was not considered a sin.

The video is blocked here at work. I'll have a look at it when I get back home.

There's no verse in the quran which says that homosexuals should be punished or
should be treated as criminals or to be killed..etc.

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

In the verse 7:80-81 Lut didn't say that they have to be punished, but that they transgressed the bounds.

Do you approach males among the worlds (26:165)
And leave what your Lord has created for you as mates? But you are a people transgressing.(26:166)

I don't see that there's a punishment to be applied on them otherwise God should had mentioned it as well.

 

[MARCELLO]

I start to like muslims more and more each day.

 

[cambridge79]

I start to like muslims more and more each day.

There are lot of christians too who have nothing against gays so it depends on wich muslims you talk about: in arabia gays are imprisoned.
That shows us one thing: that the world should not be divided in christians, muslims, atheists, buddhist and so on.
but it should be divided between people who respect other people way of life and people who don't.
atheists christians muslims and so on they can coexists peacefully and easily as long as each one don't force their view on other people and the secret is to take distance and cut out the extremists people from every group.

 

[MARCELLO]

There are lot of christians too who have nothing against gays so it depends on wich muslims you talk about: in arabia gays are imprisoned.
That shows us one thing: that the world should not be divided in christians, muslims, atheists, buddhist and so on.
but it should be divided between people who respect other people way of life and people who don't.
atheists christians muslims and so on they can coexists peacefully and easily as long as each one don't force their view on other people and the secret is to take distance and cut out the extremists people from every group.

I am working in arabian countries fo rmore than a decade and I really did nasty things. Being imprisoned? Never!

 

[cambridge79]

I am working in arabian countries fo rmore than a decade and I really did nasty things. Being imprisoned? Never!

try to be a woman and drive in saudi arabia, or be an atheist and have a blog in saudi arabia and let's see what happens. I assume just like anywhere in the world you can do things safely between the walls of your house not because it's legal or accepted but because it's impossible to see you.
you wanna have sex with a guy in your home? i assume you can, how can they see that. try walk hand in hand and caress each others in the street and see what happens.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There are lot of christians too who have nothing against gays so it depends on wich muslims you talk about: in arabia gays are imprisoned.
That shows us one thing: that the world should not be divided in christians, muslims, atheists, buddhist and so on.
but it should be divided between people who respect other people way of life and people who don't.
atheists christians muslims and so on they can coexists peacefully and easily as long as each one don't force their view on other people and the secret is to take distance and cut out the extremists people from every group.

Indeed. Just like with the Bible, the seemingly anti-gay verses in the Qur'an can be interpreted in other ways, I am learning. The Hadiths contain interesting passages, too. It's also important to note that those cultures had a very different view of sexuality, gender and relationships than we do now.

Interesting reading: http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/Qurannotes.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhannathun

So, no - being anti-gay is not inherent in Judaism, Christianity or Islam.

 

[cambridge79]

Indeed. Just like with the Bible, the seemingly anti-gay verses can be interpreted in other ways, I am learning. It's also important to note that those cultures had a very different view of sexuality, gender and relationships than we do now.

Interesting reading: http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/Qurannotes.htm

So, no - being anti-gay is not inherent in Judaism, Christianity or Islam.

consider in the bible the only guy spared at Sodoma was a guy who offered his daughters to be raped by the people that wanted to rape angels, and the same guy later had sex while drunk with both his daughters while his wife was killed only hours ago. And he was the righteous one spared by god . But gays are a no-no, bad god hater gays

 

[MARCELLO]

try to be a woman and drive in saudi arabia, or be an atheist and have a blog in saudi arabia and let's see what happens. I assume just like anywhere in the world you can do things safely between the walls of your house not because it's legal or accepted but because it's impossible to see you.
you wanna have sex with a guy in your home? i assume you can, how can they see that. try walk hand in hand and caress each others in the street and see what happens.

I am not a woman and I don't drive,I have my own driver to go somewhere. Why should it be my problem? I am not the king of somewhere. I am a gay living in arabian countries without any problem. Why don't you understand that they don't ever harm me? Never,ever? Do you think that I would live among with them if they did bad things to me?

Believe me or not, being a gay here is so much pleasant than East Europe.

 

[Smart_Guy]

There's no verse in the quran which says that homosexuals should be punished or
should be treated as criminals or to be killed..etc.

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

In the verse 7:80-81 Lut didn't say that they have to be punished, but that they transgressed the bounds.

Do you approach males among the worlds (26:165)
And leave what your Lord has created for you as mates? But you are a people transgressing.(26:166)

I don't see that there's a punishment to be applied on them otherwise God should had mentioned it as well.

Ah, yes I know that. I only said it is considered a sin, not that it is punishable. Kinda like eating pork is a sin but is not punishable.

Disclaimer:
I'm not judging homosexual for what they do. It is just a belief that homosexual intercourse is considered a sin in Islam like pork and alcohol are considered a sin.​

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

consider in the bible the only guy spared at Sodoma was a guy who offered his daughters to be raped by the people that wanted to rape angels, and the same guy later had sex while drunk with both his daughters while his wife was killed only hours ago. And he was the righteous one spared by god . But gays are a no-no, bad god hater gays

With religious texts, I find that it's extremely helpful to put things in their historical and cultural context. It has a great tendency to make very difficult passages easy to understand.

Fundies, however, don't do that. They make the mistake of taking things at face value and that's where the hatefulness comes from.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

From what I've been reading about early Islam, it seems that they were relatively tolerant people. It is ironic because the Salafists, of which the Wahhabi movement is a part, claim that they are reviving the original form of Islam. However, that is obviously false. If they were truly reviving early Islam, they would be much more tolerant and accepting of diversity. Funny that.

 

[FearGod]

try to be a woman and drive in saudi arabia, or be an atheist and have a blog in saudi arabia and let's see what happens. I assume just like anywhere in the world you can do things safely between the walls of your house not because it's legal or accepted but because it's impossible to see you.
you wanna have sex with a guy in your home? i assume you can, how can they see that. try walk hand in hand and caress each others in the street and see what happens.

Doing things at home is a thing and doing it in the public is another thing,
i don't want my children to see people doing things that should be done
in the bedroom.