TULIP and Christianity

[evearael]

I know TULIP is from Calvinism, but which denominations of Christianity follow this?

Would anyone have been able to be saved prior to its codification, before or after the time of Jesus?

As a Calvinist, how would you describe God?

 

[Scuba Pete]

I saw this mentioned in another thread. What is tulip?

 

[evearael]

From Wiki:

The five points of Calvinism, which can be remembered by the English mnemonic TULIP are:

• Total depravity (or total inability): As a consequence of the Fall of man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. According to the view, people are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures.
• Unconditional election: God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy.
• Limited atonement (or particular redemption or definite atonement): The death of Christ actually takes away the penalty of sins of those on whom God has chosen to have mercy. It is "limited" to taking away the sins of the elect, not of all humanity, and it is "definite" and "particular" because atonement is certain for those particular persons.
• Irresistible grace (or efficacious grace): The saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith in Christ.
• Perseverance of the saints (or preservation of the saints): Any person who has once been truly saved from damnation must necessarily persevere and cannot later be condemned. The word saints is used in the sense in which it is used in the Bible to refer to all who are set apart by God, not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven (see Saint).

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Many Baptist churches and most Presbyterian churches are Calvinist. There are some quite insightful and well-meaning theologians that are Calvinist and can reproduce the doctrine better - in my opinion - than Calvin himself did.

John Piper I think is an excellent example, when he is his best, but he has many faults.

All of the apostolic fathers (the first leaders in Christianity) taught that both predestination and double predestination were heresies. Both Calvin and Piper would have done good to have taken these references to heart, because fathers writing before the NT was finished understood Paul quite differently... and that what would become TULIP in the 16th century fundamentally undermines Christianity's message for people to work out their salvation through good works.

Calvin is also a misanthrope (and Gnostic), teaching that humans are fundamentally evil, which directly contradicts biblical teachings...

 

[evearael]

So it isn't a matter of individual denominations as much as interpretations of different churches within those denominations? Interesting.

By any chance could you point me to the teachings of the apostolic fathers that address this?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So it isn't a matter of individual denominations as much as interpretations of different churches within those denominations? Interesting.

By any chance could you point me to the teachings of the apostolic fathers that address this?

I will take a look at my notes. I'm a bit overwhelmed right now with other things, and it may take me some time to find it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I will take a look at my notes. I'm a bit overwhelmed right now with other things, and it may take me some time to find it.

Thank goodness I found it... will post soon...

 

[evearael]

Cool! Take your time. I know you are very busy.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Cool! Take your time. I know you are very busy.

From the Shepherd of Hermas:

Vision 2.6.5

For the Master has sworn by his own glory regarding his elect, that if sin still occurs, now that this day has been set as a limit, they will not find salvation, for repentence for the righteous is at an end; the days of repentance for all the saints are over, although for the heathen there is possibility for repentence until the last day.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The Epistle of Barnabas 21.1:

"It is good, therefore, after learning all the Lord's commandments which are written here, to walk in them. For the one who does these things will be glorified in the kingdom of God; the one who does the opposites will perish together with his works. This is why there is a resurrection, this is why there is recompense."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The Epistle of Barnabas 5.5:

"... a man deserves to perish if, having knowledge of the way of righteousness, he ensnares himself in a way of darkness..."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

And very clearly (yes, I am working backwards...)...

Barnabas 4.12

The Lord will judge the world without partiality. Each person will receive according to what he has done. If he is good (which Calvin denies explicitly), his righteousness will precede him; if he is evil, the wages of doing evil will go before him. (13) Let us never fall asleep (die) in our sins, as if being called (Calvin's favorite word) was an excuse to rest, lest the evil ruler gain power over us and thrust us out of the kingdom of the Lord"

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The Didache:

16.2 Gather together frequently, seeking the things that benefit your souls, for all the time you have believed will be of no use to you if you are not perfect in the last time.

16.5 Then all humankind will come over the firey test, and 'many will fall away' and perish; but 'those who endure to the end' (quoting Matthew 24.10) will be saved.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Polycarp's Epistle to the Philippians

"But he who raised him from the dead will raise us also if we do his will and follow his commandments and love the things he loved while avoiding every kind of unrighteousness, greed, love of money, slandar, and false testimony, not repaying evil for evil or insult for insult, but instead remembering what the Lord said as he taught, "Do not judge, that you may not be judged, forgive, and you will be forgiven, show mercy and you will be shown mercy; with the measure you use it will be measured back to you; and blessed are the poor for theirs is the kingdom of God."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Ignatius to the Smyrneans

"Those (Chrsitians) who deny the good gift of God (the Eucharist) perish in their contentiousness. It would be more to their advantage to love, in order that they might also rise up (from the dead in the last day)."

 

[lilithu]

Calvin is also a misanthrope (and Gnostic), teaching that humans are fundamentally evil, which directly contradicts biblical teachings...

Gnosticism teaches that creation is fundamentally flawed, possibly evil. Asside from that, what does it have in common with Calvinism??

 

[angellous_evangellous]

2 Clement

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, inasmuchas we have received no small oppotunity to repent, let us, while we still have time, turn again to God who has called us, while we still have one who accepts us. For if we renounce these pleasures, and conquer our soul by refusing to fulfill its evil desires, we will share in Jesus' mercy. But you know that the day of judgment is coming as a blazing furnace and some of the heavens will dissolve and the whole earth will be like lead and a melting fire -- and the works of men, the secret and the public, will be made known....

Let us repent, therefore, with our whole heart, lest any of us (Christians) perish...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

1 Clement 50.5

"Blessed are we, dear friends, if we continue to keep God's commandments in the harmony of love, that our sins may be forgiven us through love.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Gnosticism teaches that creation is fundamentally flawed, possibly evil. Asside from that, what does it have in common with Calvinism??

Nothing that I know of. But that is a critical connection.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

By any chance could you point me to the teachings of the apostolic fathers that address this?

I have listed at least one quote from all of the apostolic fathers - early Christian leaders who wrote from ca 90-130. All of them are explicitly against what later becomes Calvinist theology. Many of the later fathers are as well, and I will not post examples - I actually don't have time for that. There are simply too many.

The Church is absolutely unified on this issue.