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Veteran Member
Ew! Get it off of me! :) I like you right now, because you have made such thoughtful and careful replies. That is why I feel bad about writing such a long reply. I'm sure it must feel like chewing leather to read me. Sorry about that. I have always struggled to make things succinct and to not add in distractions.
"like chewing leather" :tearsofjoy:

I don't want to do this, but I'm going to point out 2John 1:3. It repeats the same words different ways and does this for grace then for love. It has grace mercy and peace grouped, and then it has truth and love grouped. I admit that as a human being truth and love often seem at odds, like twins that require balancing. It is an old Jewish conundrum, too; of how either to balance them or how to reconcile them. Do you stone people or refuse to stone them? John both in the gospel and in his letters puts forward love as the answer to this conundrum. I understand the (1:3) as an equivocation of truth and love but with love being the substance and the handle of both. Here is a Psalm that mentions how the psalmist longs for the reconciliation of love and truth:
[Psa 85:10-11 NIV] 10 Love and faithfulness meet together; righteousness and peace kiss each other. 11 Faithfulness springs forth from the earth, and righteousness looks down from heaven.​
In God's perfection these two are not at odds, however in humanity they have been. It is not to be so in the new creation, in Christ. In Christ what was in heaven is to be made so on earth: truth and love together. John's gospel and letters seem to say that we must put love first, and this will reconcile the truth to it. Mercy and toleration will draw us to repent such that exclusions and truth tests and filters will become a thing of the past. As a human this sounds mad I know, but the NT authors expect divine choices not human choices. Only a madman takes a thief in to be a roomate, but a divine person might do so sanely for the purpose of winning the thief over. There are stories of Christians who have done this kind of thing. As a human I question their wisdom, but as someone familiar with scripture I can see why they have done so.

Love comes first and is the truth in John. In Paul it is the word made flesh in us, the church which is the body of Christ (Jesus being its first member).

When John mentions "Walking in the truth" this is a phrase also in James the letter of his brother. (**Editing follows**) James also mentions the light. John 1:7 uses the phrase "walk in the light." All are in the canon. What James points out about truth is that we are not the truth but that we receive it constantly, analogous to how a person walks in light. John uses the phrase walking in the light. (**Editing ends***) James also calls this something else: He calls it continually looking at the-perfect-law-which-gives-freedom. That perfect law which gives freedom is what John names as 'Love'.

To finish: this is what John 2:8-11 is talking about when it says to walk in the truth. It means going away from the old ways and just loving people. A lot of historical evidence also points to this such as the doing away of circumcision and allowing to eat previously unkosher foods. Lots of taboos were lifted for Christians. I realize that Paul was very strict about certain things, but love seems to be considered more important than knowledge by him. This represents a huge reversal of many previous Jewish positions. They would have thought that it was most important to work out the details of how to love people and to have plans in advance called protocols which we today call laws and which are based upon truths: therefore making truth the big brother of love whereas James and John have love as the big brother of truth.
It's just that people tend to get a bit confused about what love is.
You refered to 1 Corinthians 13, earlier.
[Love] does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. (1 Corinthians 13:6)

(Leviticus 19:17) “‘You must not hate your brother in your heart. You should by all means reprove your fellow man, so that you will not bear sin along with him.

(Psalms 141:5) Should the righteous one strike me, it would be an act of loyal love; Should he reprove me, it would be like oil on my head, Which my head would never refuse. My prayer will continue even during their calamities.

(Proverbs 27:6) The wounds inflicted by a friend are faithful, But an enemy’s kisses are plentiful.

(Proverbs 13:1) . . .A wise son accepts his father’s discipline, But the scoffer does not listen to a rebuke.

(Matthew 16:22-23) 22 At this Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying: “Be kind to yourself, Lord; you will not have this happen to you at all.” 23 But turning his back, he said to Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”

(Matthew 18:15) “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.

(Proverbs 3:12) For those whom Jehovah loves he reproves, Just as a father does a son in whom he delights.

(Hebrews 12:5-11) 5 And you have entirely forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not belittle the discipline from Jehovah, nor give up when you are corrected by him; 6 for those whom Jehovah loves he disciplines, in fact, he scourges everyone whom he receives as a son.” 7 You need to endure as part of your discipline. God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 But if you have not all shared in receiving this discipline, you are really illegitimate children, and not sons. 9 Furthermore, our human fathers used to discipline us, and we gave them respect. Should we not more readily submit ourselves to the Father of our spiritual life and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time according to what seemed good to them, but he does so for our benefit so that we may partake of his holiness. 11 True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful; yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

True love, does not hold back truth from those to whom it is owing.
Truth can hurt, but it heals those who allow themselves to be corrected or disciplined by it.
Hence, truth and love go hand in hand.

(Exodus 34:6-7) 6 Jehovah was passing before him and declaring: “Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and compassionate, slow to anger and abundant in loyal love and truth, 7 showing loyal love to thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin, but he will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons and upon grandsons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation.”


Veteran Member
It refers to most Christians today who reject other Christians. Therefore it is confusing to tell you who to treat this way. Do we reject the LDS people since they claim to have the only correct church? The JW's? The Muslims? Yes pretty much everybody who wants to claim exclusivity. Its a tough row to hoe. I think the best thing to do, right now, since its such a rampant sin is to blatantly rebuke people who are exclusive in this way. We can't live on a postage stamp though, and even in groups that are heavily antichristian live people who are open to christ and to an inclusive communion. I guess at the time the verse is written its easier to distinguish the people who want to be exclusive, but today almost everyone is. To perfectly follow this rule I'd have to cut off my own family, but I don't have the strength to do so. Besides I don't think they understand what they are doing.
You have to seek God and truth for yourself.
No one can do that for you, but God's ministers can help you find both. Romans 10:13-15

It requires taking in accurate knowledge.
(Romans 10:2) . . .I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. John 17:3

The fact of the matter is, there are ministers of God, and ministers of the Devil.
(2 Corinthians 11:13) For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.

It's up to us to look for, and identify them.
We cannot be too lazy to do so. That's not wise.
2 Thessalonians 1:8; Matthew 25:31-46


Veteran Member
God makes the kingdom grow. Matthew 13:24 is the parable of the wheat and tares which is yet another reason not to exclude people on the basis of doctrinal differences.
Would you tell that to Jesus?
(Matthew 15:9) It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.
(Mark 7:8) You let go of the commandment of God and cling to the tradition of men.”

Let us leave this part of the discussion for another day. I think God's inspiration is for anyone who requests it: poets, writers, evil leaders, wise persons, children etc. Should I reject wisdom if it comes from the wrong place? Why must John be stealing if he uses Greek philosophy? Provided he and we excise anything that isn't good for food, what's the harm? A melon seed does not make you pregnant if you eat it. Its a good discussion but might be too big for this thread I think. Today we deal only with canon and what it says. The only reason for bringing up Heraclitus is that John uses his words, and this can help us who don't share the language and culture of John.
Allow Jesus to answer you. What does Jesus say? Are you willing to listen to him?

(John 8:31-32) 31 Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
(John 8:42-47) 42 Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. 44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. 45 Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me? 47 The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”

The good thing about your posts is that you break them into sections. So, while combined, they look like quite a lot to cover, it's easier to cover them. ;)

One reason most people reject Jesus, and the Bible, is because they don't like what these say.
They don't agree with their ideas. ...and so, those people do their best to try and discredit the Bible.