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Truth without Scripture?

Arrow

Member
How did Moses know that God was God and not someone else? For instance, Mohammed (spelling?) claimed to see an angel same with Joseph Smith, and same with many other religions I am sure.

Moses was the writer of the Torah right? So how did he know that what he was writing was truth and not a bunch of lies? Same goes for the disciples.

Secondly, is it possible for us to know truth about God without Scripture? I realize that this opens into other questions, but lets try to not focus on those. Thanx
 

blackout

Violet.
I always trust my personal experience of God
above anything anyone else has written or said about "him".

The only truths I know about "God" are the ones
I have seen and assimilated over time & experience
in my own life.
One of those truths would be
that with every wonderfilled paradigm shift I make
will be a totally new construction/realization of truth.

I personally have no scriptures anymore.
Just books that I enjoy.
I don't like scripts that try to write my life for me.
My life is my own.
I won't ever hand it over again.
 

blackout

Violet.
Oh yeah...
Arrow,
I LOVE your avitar!

I just love question marks.
????????????????????????????:rainbow1:
 

Arrow

Member
thanks for the compliment

perhaps i am being intrusive but what do you mean that you will not hand it over again?
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Secondly, is it possible for us to know truth about God without Scripture?
I'd say it is entirely possible for one to know the truth of God without scripture.
 

Arrow

Member
Mister Emu,

"I'd say it is entirely possible for one to know the truth of God without scripture."

Why would you say that though?
 

blackout

Violet.
thanks for the compliment

perhaps i am being intrusive but what do you mean that you will not hand it over again?

Nope. Not intrusive.

I almost lost the whole of my self..
my whole TRUE self...
the BEAUTIFUL vital unique me...
to church, world and marriage.

At deaths door I made a major paradigm leap
straight into the face of the unknown mystery...
in the face of incredible superstition...
I jumped... and landed in eternity.

I have been healing and healing...
right here in eternity...
and taking my life back for 4 years now.

Just very recently I took another huge paradigm leap
into just about all that was left of my forbidden superstition...
and the newness of life in me now...
has me crying as I type this post.

I traded in everything any institution
ever said was true or important...
for my OWN wonder filled majikal life.

I would never let any institution
(church, state, marriage, university etc etc)
script or indoctrinate or inform the spirit of life in me again.
I reject ALL Authority but my own in God.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Moses was the writer of the Torah right? So how did he know that what he was writing was truth and not a bunch of lies? Same goes for the disciples.
I honestly think they were guessing. That's all anyone can do.

Secondly, is it possible for us to know truth about God without Scripture?
I don't believe it's possible for humans to know the truth about God at all.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
[quote=Arrow;998185]How did Moses know that God was God and not someone else? For instance, Mohammed (spelling?) claimed to see an angel same with Joseph Smith, and same with many other religions I am sure.

Moses was the writer of the Torah right? So how did he know that what he was writing was truth and not a bunch of lies? Same goes for the disciples.

Does it matter who the author was or what he thought he was doing or indeed who he thought was talking to him?
From my point of view it is more important what I make of anything that I read.
As regards whether it is truth or lies, if referring to the factuality of the text does it matter?
As regards the meaning of the text is it not up to the reader what they take from it, for example can a person not take truths from a novel?





Secondly, is it possible for us to know truth about God without Scripture? I realize that this opens into other questions, but lets try to not focus on those. Thanx[/quote]

Yeah why not?
I have conceptual difficulties with God, for me, (I think..) God is in the corners that science and reason haven't yet (and may never?) explained.
My sense of the presence of a benign something has been experienced when outdoors in nature, or with my children for example. Science doesn't explain that 'raw feel' for me. I consider that 'raw feel' to be part of the truth about God (for me). I don't need scripture for that. That is not however to say that the truth about God does not lie in holy books for others, I am just stating that in my opinion I can feel God without scriptures
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I have conceptual difficulties with God,..........................................
That is not however to say that the truth about God does not lie in holy books for others, I am just stating that in my opinion I can feel God without scriptures

There is nothing wrong with your concept or your feelings.
Every one has queries about the nature of God.

Even those with a strong faith have difficulty conceptualising God. The Bible stories give very different views about his nature.
This is hardly surprising when you look at the differences in learning and culture between those writing the old testament and the new.And even more so between then and now.
Most of the early Bible stories have been transcribed from the purely oral traditions of a stone and iron age peoples,
who would have had no difficulty understanding the stories as more parables than fact.
We on the other hand have a tendency to believe the written word as fact. And some of us are encouraged to do so in matters of faith by particular churches.

Any religion that can only offer the authority of the written word of ancient peoples, is at a disadvantage... that is unless the faithful also have a strong personal sense of the existence of God.

For me this faith is summed up in the teachings of Christ...
These teachings were not only revolutionary in his day, but also ran counter to the thinking current in his Jewish background.
His teachings have a few basic denominators.. they all relate to God and transform man.
Love
Forgiveness
service
equality
faithfulness
trust
truth
worship
Jesus gave few commands...
Central to this was... that we should remember him in the last supper
and to do so as often as we are gathered together...
Therefore The Love and worship of God has become encapsulated in the Eucharist.
 

Luke_17:2

Fundamental Bible-thumper
How did Moses know that God was God and not someone else? For instance, Mohammed (spelling?) claimed to see an angel same with Joseph Smith, and same with many other religions I am sure.

There's a huge difference.

Joseph Smith claims to have seen an angel -no witnesses.
Mohammed claims to have seen an angel -no witnesses.

With Moses and his dealings with God, there were witnesses: two million Jews.

Moses was the writer of the Torah right? So how did he know that what he was writing was truth and not a bunch of lies? Same goes for the disciples.

Well, with Moses, God dictated every word.

With the disciples, they had plenty of evidence (take Paul) that God existed. The Holy Spirit inspired them what to write.

Secondly, is it possible for us to know truth about God without Scripture? I realize that this opens into other questions, but lets try to not focus on those. Thanx

Well, it's impossible to know God without scripture.
 

goraya15

Member
One must definitely have scripture to realize truth. If not, what was the point of God sending it down in the first place? To attempt to find Truth, about God especially, without a guideline of practice and true doctrine sent down in the form of a divine book, only sets you up to become a highly philosophical ponderer, and eventually down the road will lead to the degradation in even your belief in God. SO...scripture is important. Hold fast to it, no matter what your creed. Read it YOURSELF, ask questions, pray, and inshallah, God will guide you.
 

goraya15

Member
Joseph Smith claims to have seen an angel -no witnesses.
Mohammed claims to have seen an angel -no witnesses.

With Moses and his dealings with God, there were witnesses: two million Jews.

Well, with Moses, God dictated every word.

A few inaccuracies here...

First off, there are many instances in the Holy Prophet Mohammad's life where his close companions also saw angels that came to deliver messages to him. So, there were witnesses.

Second, you don't mention if there are witnesses to Moses seeing angels. And I hardly believe that 2 million Jews witness to Moses receiving revelation. The Torah was also not written by moses, but by many, many rabbis and scholar's, who put together their individual accounts and writings together to form the Torah. So no, it was dictated by God word for word, and on that account, neither was the New Testament. The ONLY book claiming to be a word for word account of God Himself is the Holy Qur'an.
 

Luke_17:2

Fundamental Bible-thumper
A few inaccuracies here...

First off, there are many instances in the Holy Prophet Mohammad's life where his close companions also saw angels that came to deliver messages to him. So, there were witnesses.

Close companions?

How many? How close? Would the lie for him?

Even 500 people who claim to have seen Jesus after His crucifixtion were not close friends, and there were respectable people among them.

Second, you don't mention if there are witnesses to Moses seeing angels. And I hardly believe that 2 million Jews witness to Moses receiving revelation.

The Pentateuch was dictated by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai -and the entire Nation of Israel (2 million people) at the bottom of the mountain were aware of it.

Not to mention the divine interventions: manna, the red sea, etc.

The Torah was also not written by moses, but by many, many rabbis and scholar's, who put together their individual accounts and writings together to form the Torah.

The Torah, which is the 5 books of law which are the part of the Bible called the Pentateuch, was written by Moses. Period.

So no, it was dictated by God word for word, and on that account, neither was the New Testament. The ONLY book claiming to be a word for word account of God Himself is the Holy Qur'an.

Yes it was dictated by God word for word.

Secondly, the New Testament claims to be written under divine inspiration with the exception of the Gospels whic were narrative accounts, and the Revelation of Jesus Christ which was dictaed by God the Son to the Apostle John
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Close companions?

How many? How close? Would the lie for him?

Even 500 people who claim to have seen Jesus after His crucifixtion were not close friends, and there were respectable people among them.



The Pentateuch was dictated by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai -and the entire Nation of Israel (2 million people) at the bottom of the mountain were aware of it.

Not to mention the divine interventions: manna, the red sea, etc.



The Torah, which is the 5 books of law which are the part of the Bible called the Pentateuch, was written by Moses. Period.



Yes it was dictated by God word for word.

Secondly, the New Testament claims to be written under divine inspiration with the exception of the Gospels whic were narrative accounts, and the Revelation of Jesus Christ which was dictaed by God the Son to the Apostle John

Do you really believe all that to be true.
I have been a Christian all my life and have never been taught that there was any certainty that any of the scriptures are wholly true, nor any evidence of witnesses to anything.
Faith is one thing, asserting facts is another.
 

Luke_17:2

Fundamental Bible-thumper
Well, the same book from which you get your salvation says a whole lot of other things: if some of those things be false, how is the plan of salvation true? How can we be sure?

I really believe all of it.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Why would you say that though?
God can contact whom He will, and pass what information He will onto the person. Thus God could reveal His truth to an individual without the use of scripture.
 

Random

Well-Known Member
God can contact whom He will, and pass what information He will onto the person. Thus God could reveal His truth to an individual without the use of scripture.

Do you believe this kind of personal revelation from Deity actually occurs in, for want of a better term for it, "everyday life"?
 

Smoke

Done here.
With Moses and his dealings with God, there were witnesses: two million Jews.
On numbers, see Wikipedia:
Numbers involved in the Exodus

Exodus 12:37 refers to 600,000 adult Hebrew men leaving Egypt with Moses, plus an unspecified but apparently large number of non-Hebrews ("A mixed multitude also went up with them" - Exodus 12:38); allowing for women and children, the total number involved may have been two million or more.[1] Egypt at the time might have supported a total population of around 3-4 million, maybe even up to 6 million,[2] although Napoleon estimated a only 3 million when he invaded in 1798; in any event, the numbers given in Exodus 12:37 seem to represent something between half and almost the entire probable population of Egypt.
The logistics of the Exodus also present problems. A simple calculation shows that a group of 3 million walking 10 abreast with 6 ft between rows would extend for around 340 miles (3,000,000 / 10 * 6 = 1,800,000 ft. = 340 mi). The "very many cattle, both flocks and herds" which accompanied the fleeing Hebrews, plus straggling children and the elderly, would have increased this distance. Recent archaeological research has found no evidence that the Sinai desert ever hosted millions of people, nor of a massive population increase in Canaan, estimated to have had a population of between 50,000 and 100,000, at the end of the march.[3]

Hebrew University professor Abraham Malamat points out that the Bible often refers to 600 and its multiples, as well as 1,000 and its multiples, typologically in order to convey the idea of a large military unit. "The issue of Exodus 12:37 is an interpretive one. The Hebrew word eleph can be translated 'thousand,' but it is also rendered in the Bible as 'clans' and 'military units.' There are thought to have been 20,000 men in the entire Egyptian army at the height of Egypt's empire. And at the battle of Ai in Joshua 7, there was a severe military setback when 36 troops were killed." Therefore if one reads alaphim (plural of eleph) as military units, the number of Hebrew fighting men lay between 5,000 and 6,000. In theory, this would give a total Hebrew population of less than 20,000, something within the range of historical possibility.
On what they saw:
And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
But all they really saw, according to the account, was lightning and smoke.
 
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