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Truth Vs. Error

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Democles, Mar 4, 2005.

  1. Democles

    Democles New Member

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    In this day and age, a lot of confusion is more than apparent, unfortunately for genuine truth seekers, there is but little the world can offer. I suggest that everyone posts criteria for truth, how should it be defined, how would we go about to find the path that God has for us, I also suggest that there is only one possible truth, truth is not subject to opinion, and I presume that everyone here is sensable enough to accept the fact that Truth is unchanging, divine truth that is, scentifical truth changes every year. I await everyone's response.
    Democles
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Certainly, if we had no more than your post to judge by, that would be the necessary conclusion. Fortunately, science and philosophy has a good deal more to offer than a platitudinous porridge of peurile platitudes aimed against "scentifical truth". ;)
     
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  3. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Truth​
    Can Be Found





    Certain students of philosophy have developed the view that ultimate truth is not within the reach of mankind. In fact, Swedish author Alf Ahlberg wrote: "Many philosophical questions are of such a nature that it is not possible to give a definite answer to them." Although some say that there is only relative truth, is that really so? Not according to Jesus Christ.​

    Let us imagine ourselves as observers of the following scene: It is early in the year 33 C.E., and Jesus is standing before Roman Governor Pontius Pilate. Jesus tells Pilate: "For this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth." Pilate asks: "What is truth?" But he does not wait for Jesus’ further comment.—John 18:36-38.​

    "Truth" has been defined as "the body of real things, events, and facts." (Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary) However, did Jesus bear witness to truth in general? No. He had specific truth in mind. He commissioned his followers to declare such truth, for he told them: "Make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19, 20) Before the end of this system of things, Jesus’ genuine followers would declare "the truth of the good news" earth wide. (Galatians 2:14) This would be done in fulfillment of Jesus’ words: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14) So it is vital that we identify those who are teaching all nations the truth by preaching the good news of the Kingdom.

     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Best I can tell, the principle author of John was a flake.
     
  5. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    That's funny... God has the very same view! I love it when everyone agrees like this! :D

    Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. 8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. 9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
     
  6. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    Welcome to RF Democles.

    For me TRUTH has not only been a search, it has been a hunt. In both terms of research I have allowed much room for error because you have to when you set out on such a expedition. I would be skeptical of TRUTH that was simply acquired from mouth to mouth or from pen to page. The sweetest TRUTHs or the ones you can capture and dissect yourself.
     
  7. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I agree completely; the truth of others is of no value. We must teach ourselves the Truth in our own ways. One of the hardest things for me was to come to the realization that I could allow myself to think for myself. Sure, read all the books; they are there in order to give us different perspectives. However, the final choice of truth is up to the individual.:)
     
  8. Democles

    Democles New Member

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    I suppose I have been misunderstood by a few of you, my statement did not have for purpose to arouse your contention, I am merely attempting to find the truth, if I were in fact saying that only I hold the truth, as some of you seem to think, I probably wouldn't waste my time on this website. I have taken on a quest for truth, I actively and sincerely want to find the truth in this deceiving world, I was merely stating my understanding of truth according to my christian background, truth is eternal, it cannot be changed, otherwise, God would cease to be God, there would be no purpose in having faith, having faith in what? A truth that will change ten years from now? I want to find something deeper than that, something constant, whether it be a religion or some kind of organization, I know that God has placed his truth on the Earth and I don't believe that it would be everywhere at the same time, truth is not personal, it just is and no matter what we think or like to think, it is unchangable, therefore, I suggest one more time that we come together and come up with several criteria concerning that topic, if I offended you I am truly sorry, but see me as a friend trying to find the truth.
     
  9. precept

    precept Member

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    Democles....a religious forum is hardly the place one would expect to find truth. The contributors to a religious forum are themselves ambassadors for their own version of truth; and would not "come together" to decide on any version but their own.

    Objective truth must be found outside of any one or other's subjective view; and such objectivity must be independent of human subjective input for its purity.

    If this Objectivity is found in one or other of the religions of this world; it wont be that religion's to claim; but rather the Objectivity must itself point to that religion.
    Religions must therefore unknowingly choose the Objectivity on which they must be judged as true or false; and this has been done already when any religion, pagan or otherwise choose to follow a "Deity"...."any Deity".
    This Objectivity puts all religions as believing in a Higher Being than they themselves as humans; with powers greater than as can be found among humans. With such unsolicited unanimus agreement on "Deity" must necessarily follow the wishes and or commands of said Deity on how he/she must be worshiped. and which if followed would identify his/her followers. This Deity would then so communicate his/her wishes and commands to his/her followers.

    If then this "Deity" who was unknowingly unanimously chosen by humans;and who was unknowingly decided on by a multiplicity of religions; and only chosen by reading His/Her wishes and Commands, then this "Diety" would become the Objectivity; as unknowingly made so by these multiplicity of religions.

    This then, however, poses the problem of different groups of religions with different choices for their Objectivity for a Deity. But such a problem would have to be solved again unknowingly by the different claimants to Objectivity to their Deity by reading the Wishes and Commands of said Deity with a view to discovering the Deity whose Wishes and Commands are consistent and uncontradictory. [Afterall a Deity who is subject to failings and error is hardly a Deity at all. Such a "Deity" would himself or herself be no better than a human who is also fallible.

    The top "Deity" now again found without subjective benefit of any human input, must now be the Deity whose Wishes and Commands must be unwaveringly followed as the Truth the whole Truth and Nothing but the Truth.



    precept
     
  10. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Me too!
     
  11. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Where is that pesky "heaven"? Was it part of the Big Bang and now beyond the universe - like a shell to the nut? If the placement of the "heavens" is the criteria, then humanity's ways and thoughts would seem to be at least on a par with God's
     
  12. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Deut;
    I really have to give it to you; 'a platitudinous porridge of peurile platitudes' is one of the best 'verbalisations' ( I think I've invented a word there) of something you find absurd that I have heard in a long while. It made my day.

    Of course, I don't agree with you, but that's a different matter.

    I still maintain that although I cannot prove to you that God exists, a) you cannot prove to me that he doesn't b) you can offer no proof of how the universe came into being.:)
     
  13. precept

    precept Member

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    It makes no difference that the "tree" challenges the "sky"..... Without the "sky" there would be no "tree"...and soon the "tree" suffers the demise of death and surrenders most of itself to the "sky"...while the "sky" lives on and on.

    It makes no difference that that which was made by God; challenges the existence of God...like the "sky", that which is more powerful ignores the challenge of that which is "inferior"....The burden of proof is not that of the Most Powerful....the burden of proof rests with the "inferior". The Most Powerful, if in the right has the "inferior" at His mercy. The "inferior" on the other hand has no power and could not affect the Most Powerful in any regard, no matter how hard the "inferior" tries.

    The Most powerful has shown in history to have destroyed the "inferior" when He so had chosen. And no where in history has the "inferior" shown through any record of any kind of his destroying the Most powerful.

    Which side would you think of supporting? The "inferior"!



    precept
     
  14. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Apparently you have not been to an enclosed botanical garden. You were very poetic but not based in reality.
    But your God is not aloof. He sends his words and his minions to placate his jealousy. According to his words, he curses and destroys those who do not follow even to the children of them. God not only needs worship, he needs to have his worshipers evangelize - much like any petty god would do. God seeks to prove himself and enlists the silver-tounged to carry the load of that proof.

    It has always been man that is the armour and weapons of God. His "chosen" have been defeated by other humans giving God a mixed record of generalship

    Am I to understand that you consider yourself inferior? I submit that not only are you not inferior, you have created a god in your image. Humanity is, therefore, the superior of the two in this sense.

    But I consider myself neither superior nor inferior but equal - to you and any of your "creations"
     
  15. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    Ironically, only few understand what this kingdom is.
     
  16. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    I have long sought truth. Let me ask you something, what truth are you searching for? What truth is it that you seek?

    This is what I call, a basic "blueprint" for all living organisms, in which all life forms share commonalities within their structure. The blueprints are very basic and simplified distinctions. Within the structure of each organism there is a simplistic duality, and that is the distinction between inside and outside; inner and outer. What is outer is the environment, and what is inner, is the organism itself. The very first principle, is the principle of survival. What stands in the way of each organism's survival is the environment, and yet it is the environment itself that sustains an organism. The second principle is self-referential organization. An organism must organize itself in order to extract proper sustenance, to reproduce, and it must organize in order to avoid or confront hostilities.

    In order for a more complex organism to organize in such a manner, it must gather information about the environment. This is done through perception, through sense organs [i.e. eyes, ears]. Everything has it's own timbre, texture, distinct characteristics that makes every object, every thing, and every experience unique. Along with the retrieval of information, each sensory experience is interpreted for the basis of survival [i.e. temperatures feel extreme or tolerable, objects feel sharp or soft]. In order for an organism to survive in a hostile environment, a motive or sensation must exist in order to help provide the necessary reactions to successfully adapt. Our emotions, feelings, and sensations are motivators; convincers and defense mechanisms requiring us to react according to what is percieved in the environment. Every experience is recorded and etched, and thus hostile and self-preserving values are placed on everything that has been perceived. Through personal experiences, we have the ability to recognize. Memory, being the essence of knowledge and truth, is the largest benefactor to the conscious mind itself. All truth is therefore subjective, extracted from an objective environment. Our perceptions and memories are unique as our fingerprints. Therefore, truth is just as personal and distinct as each individual; religion is as diverse as the people who are religious. Because we are confined by the limitations of our mind, incapable of grasping all objective truths, our subjective truths are always changing, always evolving with our conscious minds. What has not been percieved will always objectively exist, yet it does not exist because it has yet to enter the subjective human mind.

    Here is my conclusion: We are built to survive, not comprehend all the mysteries of the vast universe. We are a mere reflection of our environment and the evolutionary process that has taken place. Error is a part of this process. There is no such thing as one truth because our truth is ultimately subjective. The essence of truth and knowledge is experience and memory; making truth itself different and unique among every individual because our experiences and memories themselves are unique. My truth is different from yours: my morals, my standards, my faith, my beliefs. We may percieve the same objective truths, but my truths will always be subjectively distinct.
     
  17. precept

    precept Member

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    The tree within the confines of a enclosed botanical garden is programmed to point its main growing shoot towards the "sky".....its roots are similarly programmed to send life giving fluids upwards towards the "sky"...even its growing "rings" are so similarly programmed to grow towards the "sky"....but as the "tree" reaches upwards towards its objective-the "sky", its efforts are thwarted by its confined space and by the pruning tool of its ever present custodian. Consequently the "tree" never achieve its objective. No matter how futile its efforts may have been not-withstanding its obstructive enclosure, it grows at the behest of its custodian, a prisoner to its circumstances; and dies not-withstanding; giving of itself to the "sky" it never could reach.

    That you admit as to His existence; and though this admission may have been inadvertent on your part; yet it is true! He does exist! I also agree that He exists but not in the form portrayed by one who hates Him. He does "curse and destroy those who do not follow even to the children of them"; but you omit to also say that He forgives even to the "children of them, all who repent of their evil doings".

    You are also right that God "needs worship"...He however doesn't need worship that is coerced or otherwise canvassed. He created us His humans solely to worship Him; but only on the basis that we would worship Him only because we loved Him so. He gave us the choice to worship Him voluntarily,,,a worship we are not allowed to give any other seeing as "He" "Made us to worship Him". Since us humans agree to the need to worship, we should direct said worship to its Rightful Owner. If said worship is directed to an Imposter, the Rightful Owner has every right to require His human to pay the penalty for mis-directing His worship.

    You may have gotten the wrong impression re God's desire to "evangelize"...a wrong impression as is being given by enthusiasts who have misunderstood God's directive to "preadh His Gospel of Love".
    It is God who has told those who would speak on His behalf that no one can claim love for Him until they claimed love for their fellow human...1 John 4:20-21 ...The "minions" of whom you speak do represent their own view of God. However,if they teach and practice "love for neighbor" with as much enthusiasm as they teach "love for God", then those are indeed God's "minions"; but I WOULD BE CAREFUL how I characterize God's "minions" seeing as He is not merciful to those who refuse to worship Him only.

    I would hesitate to add up "brownie points" before truly understanding how God uses humans for His own purposes. You may do well to read the account of God's dealing with the people He specially chose as his own. He, on the one hand destroyed all the peoples of Jericho and many other heathen nations who refused to worship Him, and who preferred to worship gods of their own creation. Yet the same God used the heathen king of the Assyrians to completely destroy the kingdom of the Israelites and subjugate His special people.
    In your addition of the "score" how would "you" score the great God?
    I shudder to think of your arriving at the wrong answer.

    You have now come full circle and is now denying that there is an All Powerful God! If. as you say..." he curses and destroys those who do not follow even to the children of them"...you are also saying in effect THAT THOSE HE CURSES AND DESTROYS ARE POWERLESS TO DO ANY THING ABOUT IT. This makes us humans "inferior", no matter your "doublespeak".

    You end as you began...Confused!


    precept
     
  18. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    • (1) Phototropism operates by the migration of plant hormones away from light. Which means that greater growth will occur away from light. With the proper controled setting, I could grow a plant in a circle.[*](2)Capilary action and the adhesive and cohesive properties of water are responsible for life sustaining activity originating in roots and leaves. This will also take place in the circle plant I just grew.[*](3) Rings are added along the length of a tree in relationship to the amount of growth within a year. They do not grow "upwards"[*](4)A tree's growth is thwarted by the the number of reproduction in it's cells. A tree's girth in a forest is related by a common fraction relative to the distance between trees.
    I'm afraid that not only do you not see the forest for the trees, you do not see the trees either.



    I admit to no God. You have ignored the implication of my saying "your God".

    I see your God, as evidenced in the Old Testament, as being vindictive and unforgiving.


    He coerces by holding salvation in an afterlife as payment for his worship and obiedience to him

    I'll ignore the implication of a threat for I have nothing to fear from a figment of your igmagination.


    I have read of God and found that he abandoned, from a Christian point of view, all those who were once covered by his covenent. - Such a trustworthy God, changing the rules and moving the goal posts.

    Because God does not exist, except in the minds of faithful, I would not "score" a non-player.

    Nothing circular in my argument - it is your misunderstanding.

    When God is denied because he is unproven and other influeces exist to explain religion and faith, I can justifiably consider myself superior to a "fantasy" character.



    :biglaugh: You wish!!! :biglaugh:
     
  19. precept

    precept Member

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    I couldn't let you get away with another mis-truth!

    "Phototropism" is the response of plants to light. Plants do not grow away from light...the exact reverse occurs...They grow towards light.
    It is because plants grow towards light that "grandmother" always places her house plants next to windows. In forests the trees are usually tall as they compete for the scant light available to the tallest trees.--"the tress closest to the "sky"".


    I had no expectation of your admitting to your confused rendering of what you thought you believed. Yours is as similar an experience as the experience had by those who are not sure if the animals evolved from the sea or from some primordial soup. Not being sure of those other theories your comradess in unbelief continue challenging themselves with postulates that include humans as evolving from the common Ape. While this theory could have been true; given that the common Ape is not extinct; yet even with our relative the Ape among us we have yet to see signs of what by now should have been a common occurrence--"Ape-humans" in the process of becoming humans. You are therefore in famaliar company--a company that denies the Creator credit for His Created world...only you are even denying He exists.

    You have made a concerted, decided, deliberate effort to now include your previously "inadvertent omsision "your God"". This only shows how out of touch you are with what you thought you believed.

    Not so! If as you say He coerces, then the majority of humans would have no choice but to be coerced into serving Him. The reality is yourself. You are the prime example--the majority of humanity like yourself choose not to serve Him. Most unlike you, however, believe He exists but are not afraid of the consequences for not serving Him.

    Others- the Ante-deluvians and the citizens of Sodom who were summarily destroyed by God, said similarly.


    I certainly would not trust your reading of or about God. Would you if you were me?

    By one's words one is justified! One's own words can also inadvertently condemn oneself!

    You remind me of the anecdote where the different members of the "body" quarrelled among themselves as to who was more important. The "lower region" was not invited to participate in the discussion..for this unforgivable oversight all the other protagonists were silenced. The moral of the story ..

    be careful re claimng "superiorty " for any purposes You will also be silenced--but forever!


    precept
     
  20. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Who said plants do not grow toward the light. Re-read my post. Your lack of understanding biology and reader comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.

    It is arrogant and wrong to think you know my mind. I will thank you to stop it.
    Take it to another thread. It is off-topic here

    Bugger off!!! Your prissy attitude to what you think I said is objectionable

    <<<cut>>>.

    Your incessant warnings are tiring. You, sir, will be silenced by that wonderfull tool known as the ignore list Goodbye!
     
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