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Featured Truth: either God exists or He don't.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by capumetu, Jan 22, 2021.

  1. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    You can't possibly know that if you've never grasped the concepts in the first place - and you very obviously haven't.
     
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  2. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    Matthew 25:31-32 Revelation 16:15
    Where does the Bible say that all the nations would be taken up into the clouds to meet Him. You see Him judging the nations right here on planet earth.
    Why would anyone worry about a thief who only comes as far as the clouds.
    Just because the Bible doesn't spell something out in black and white doesn't mean it's not going to happen
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Yes, I think you hit the nail right on the head. ;)
     
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  4. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    You can't know anything for sure. Your religion pseudo science teaches you that reality is just a theory so we might be living an illusion where nothing is real.
    Pseudo science doesn't believe the truth actually exists, it teaches the pathetic theory that everything is evolving and nobody knows the origins of matter or the destination. People who believe that everything came from nothing will latch onto anything, they have no firm foundation for any of their beliefs.
     
  5. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    More misrepresentation. How many times do you need correcting? Do you not understand? Do you not care about truth and honesty?
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Why do you believe those verses refer to Jesus? Those do not refer to Jesus since Jesus said His work was finished here and He was not coming back to this world: (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

    Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
    It is not "going" to happen because it "already" happened. The thief has come and gone:

    William Sears, Thief in the Night
     
  7. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    So you'd made up your mind (based on religion?) and didn't really take anything in (that's what it looks like)?

    Irony and projection again. :rolleyes:
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Hmmmmm.... Seems to me there are some pots on this thread calling the kettles black. :D

    upload_2021-2-5_1-25-3.jpeg
     
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  9. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Incorrect. One also tests what one does not fully understand.

    Your all caps shouting only tells us that you have no clue. It also looks as if you are very afraid. Knowledge can only set you free.
     
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  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    This is a falsehood and you should know better. All you have is a hollow belief. If you actually knew you could defend your beliefs. Shouting "I know" is not defending.
     
  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I doubt if you know the first thing about evolution. You are back to your empty "I know" claims that are belied by your demonstrated ignorance.
     
  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Now you have demonstrated that you do not even understand what a theory is.
     
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  13. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    What you mean is that your mind is closed to new information that provides us with more knowledge.

    So basically you are ignorant and remain ignorant.

    Nothing to brag about there.

    There are things that I know to be true, such as my computer existing. More knowledge provides me with more information about that computer. It gets rid of misconceptions that I might have had based off of ignorance and assumption.
     
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  14. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    And I will only believe that nothing is known for sure if they can prove that reality is an illusion.

    You follow your imagination.

    Ignorance as your solid foundation.
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    Jesus disciples had asked, Matthew 24:3, ". . . what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
    Among the things Jesus told them, Matthew 24:29, ". . .
    the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
    Jesus warned, Matthew 24:4-5, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
    Those of us who know God through having Christ (Romans 8:9) know, "but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." -- 1 John 3:2.
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Ain't that the truth, and people only get afraid when there is something to be afraid of. That is basic psychology, my field.
     
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  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I am not a psychologist, but I see plenty of fear in the fundamentalists. When debating they can never admit the least of mistakes, and they cannot honestly state their opponents' positions. And when it is obvious that they do not understand even the basics of the science that they deny they reject all offers to help them understand the basics even if that would not immediately show that they are wrong. They appear to be afraid to learn that they are wrong.
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Sorry to say for all those Christians who are still waiting for the same man Jesus to return, but all those prophecies were fulfilled before Baha'u'llah appeared, and then He appeared with power and great glory despite the clouds of men's ignorance just as the verse says.

    Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

    Rev 6:12-13 “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.”

    Matthew 24:29-30 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

    Mark 13:24-26”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    The signs of Revelation that would appear in succession, leading up to the day of the return of Christ were, in order:

    1. The great earthquake

    2. The darkening of the sun and the moon.

    3. The falling of the stars from the heavens.

    The Books of Isaiah, Joel, Daniel, Zechariah, and the New Testament of Christ Himself, had all foretold that these things would take place. Following these events, the ‘great and dreadful’ day of the Lord would appear, and then the Messiah would come, bringing the end of the world.

    Some Bible scholars felt that all of these events mentioned in Revelation would take place in one great upheaval, and that the world as we know it would pass away forever. Most of them, however, felt that these three events would take place successively, each one in turn heralding a closer approach of the footsteps of the Messiah, until, shortly after the last of the three, the star-fall, He would appear.....

    “As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:

    1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake

    2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day

    3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

    It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.

    Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
    Jesus said that there would be many deceivers because he knew there would be many who would come in His name claiming to be Christ, but Baha'u'llah did not claim to be Christ, He came in His own name, a new name, just as it says in Revelation 2:17 and Revelation 3:12 .

    Also, it is illogical to say that because Jesus warned that there would be many false prophets that means there would never be any true prophets. That would be like saying that because there are many junky cars in a junkyard that there can be no nice cars in the car lot down the street. It is illogical.

    Besides that, if there were not going to be ANY MORE prophets after Jesus, why did Jesus say the following?

    Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    The problem is that Jesus never promised to return to earth, Jesus said that His work was finished here and he would no longer be in the world.

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


    You cannot deny these verses without calling the Bible into question... If you deny those verses how can you say that any other verses you cite are accurate? That would be illogical.
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I agree there is fear, and not only in fundamentalist believers ;) and this fear is that they might be wrong, so if you try to talk logic with them it falls on deaf ears. I have this same problem with my husband when I ask him how a loving God who is also omnipotent and omniscient could allow so much suffering in the world. You cannot make that work logically, and the religious apologetic does not cut the mustard, because even if this suffering is sometimes for our benefit it is not always beneficial and it is still suffering. Why can't believers just admit that God is not necessarily all-loving? Because they want to believe God is all-loving and they are afraid what it would mean to their beliefs if God was not all-loving. This is psych 101 stuff but I have an MA in Psychology.

    Let's face it. If fundamentalists believed in science they could no longer BE fundamentalists, and they are afraid to learn that they are wrong because then their beliefs would come crashing down like a house of cards -- no Adam and Eve and and a Garden, no earth created in six days, and no evolution, because that would contradict that man has only existed for only 6,000 years, which is ludicrous, because it is known by science that man has existed for about 200,000 years, albeit not in his present form.

    So some fundamentalists feign knowledge of science, which is fully to watch, but sad to see, especially when they think they know more than atheists, which is even funnier. But heck, we all need some entertainment and it beats watching politics and news about the pandemic.

    I could never be a Christian because I believe in science as much as I believe in religion. Luckily, one of the fundamental Baha'i principles is that science is just as vital as religion, that both science and religion are necessary for the advancement of civilization, and that they can exist in harmony.

    "With regard to the harmony of science and religion, the Writings of the Central Figures and the commentaries of the Guardian make abundantly clear that the task of humanity, including the Bahá’í community that serves as the “leaven” within it, is to create a global civilization which embodies both the spiritual and material dimensions of existence. The nature and scope of such a civilization are still beyond anything the present generation can conceive. The prosecution of this vast enterprise will depend on a progressive interaction between the truths and principles of religion and the discoveries and insights of scientific inquiry. This entails living with ambiguities as a natural and inescapable feature of the process of exploring reality. It also requires us not to limit science to any particular school of thought or methodological approach postulated in the course of its development. The challenge facing Bahá’í thinkers is to provide responsible leadership in this endeavor, since it is they who have both the priceless insights of the Revelation and the advantages conferred by scientific investigation.

    (The Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, 19 May 1995)
     
    #1179 Trailblazer, Feb 5, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2021
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  20. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    But you don't know if you have perfection until you test it in every way.
     
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