Truth: either God exists or He don't.

[Pilgrim Soldier]

Only in terms of determining whether my natural surroundings were created by someone. Logic 101.

That's a strange logic

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

Nice claim. Evidence?

The evidence is, that nobody has ever proven this claim wrong in all of human history and they never will. That is rock solid evidence

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

I pointed out before that science does NOT say that 'something came from nothing'. In fact, it is *religion* that says this.

What science actually says is that whenever there was time, there was also space, matter, and energy.

So, don't claim that others are holding to a belief that is implied by your system and NOT by theirs.

No, science holds to the theory of cause and effect. So noting can just come into existence without a cause, especially complex life which requires a creator

 

[Polymath257]

The evidence is, that nobody has ever proven this claim wrong in all of human history and they never will. That is rock solid evidence

No, that is NOT evidence. Here's a question: what is a test that, if it goes the way you don't expect it will, will show you are wrong?

Passing that test will be evidence. But you have to suggest the test first.

 

[Polymath257]

No, science holds to the theory of cause and effect. So noting can just come into existence without a cause, especially complex life which requires a creator

There is no 'law of cause and effect' in science. That is, at best, a philosophical proposal.

If anything, the quantum level is known to be uncaused.

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

Isn't that convenient? you can ignore the evidence and say the truth is just hidden.

On the other side, I say that the truth is public and can be observed. All you need to do is take the actual evidence seriously.

A deity that withholds evidence to fool people is a deceiver. Do you really claim that is what is going on?

That's what God claims in His Word the Bible. He actually says, "they shall seek diligently and not find" so He does hide the truth from everyone except His elect.
The Bible is full of examples where God hardens the heart of people like Pharaoh and other Kings and rulers to stop them from finding the truth and being saved.

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

You're contradicting yourself (not for the first time). How can this 'evidence' be stark and before us if it's being deliberately hidden by your god?

You appear to have wrapped yourself up in an entirely self-referential belief system that no element of reality can be allowed to upset. Any evidence, no matter how solid, can be dismissed as god's deception, hiding of the truth, or doing things in ways that we cannot understand or judge because of our limitations.

What is somewhat puzzling though is, given how compressively you've wrapped yourself up in this reality excluding bubble, why you seem so reluctant to even acknowledging when your caricature of science is corrected. For example, how many times have you accused science or people here of thinking the universe came from nothing and how many times has this been corrected only to have you repeat it again as if nobody had said anything about it? Why do you seem so scared to acknowledge that science has different ideas if you can just wave them away too as being god hiding the truth?

the evidence is plain, but the truth is foolishness to those who are perishing

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

There is no 'law of cause and effect' in science. That is, at best, a philosophical proposal.

If anything, the quantum level is known to be uncaused.

Ok so we came back to the old everything came from nothing. Nothing caused everything to exist

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

No, that is NOT evidence. Here's a question: what is a test that, if it goes the way you don't expect it will, will show you are wrong?

Passing that test will be evidence. But you have to suggest the test first.

I know that game, you set the rules of the test then you revert back to the old circular reasoning trick

 

[Polymath257]

That's what God claims in His Word the Bible. He actually says, "they shall seek diligently and not find" so He does hide the truth from everyone except His elect.
The Bible is full of examples where God hardens the heart of people like Pharaoh and other Kings and rulers to stop them from finding the truth and being saved.

And that is a good reason to believe the Bible is wrong. If the truth is only revealed to the 'select', then there is no difference between it and self-delusion. It is an opinion and nothing else.

Truth, by its nature, is there for everyone, if they would only look. You can get a telescope and see what the universe is like. You can investigate geology on your own.

Here's a question: what sort of evidence *could* prove you wrong? Not that you expect or believe this evidence will ever appear. But what would be able to prove you wrong?

 

[Polymath257]

I know that game, you set the rules of the test then you revert back to the old circular reasoning trick

It isn't circular if it is based on previously tested ideas.

 

[Polymath257]

Ok so we came back to the old everything came from nothing. Nothing caused everything to exist

There is no 'nothing'. Some things simply exist: like the universe. Some things happen that are unaused: nothing prior to them made it so that the event would happen as it did.

It is NOT that 'nothing' caused things to exist. It is that there is no cause at all.

 

[Polymath257]

the evidence is plain, but the truth is foolishness to those who are perishing

Or what you think it truth is actually a lie and really is foolishness.

 

[Samael_Khan]

That's a strange logic

You don't use logic so you wouldn't know. You use your feelings instead.

 

[ratiocinator]

the evidence is plain, but the truth is foolishness to those who are perishing

Perfectly demonstrating my point (which you ignored). Your 'reasoning' is entirely circular. Anything that hints that you might be wrong is a deception or wicked unbelievers not understanding your god. No hint of cold hard reality must be allowed into your mind at any cost.

 

[ratiocinator]

Ok so we came back to the old everything came from nothing. Nothing caused everything to exist

And yet again demonstrating the point I made in #818. Why are you too afraid to acknowledge that this is not what people are saying?

 

[ratiocinator]

The evidence is, that nobody has ever proven this claim wrong in all of human history and they never will. That is rock solid evidence

That isn't evidence (let alone "rock solid evidence"), it's (at best) an argument from ignorance. Since your claim appeared to be unfalsifiable, it doesn't even get that far.

 

[Polymath257]

Ok so we came back to the old everything came from nothing. Nothing caused everything to exist

Let me ask this. What caused your God?

I am betting you will say that he is not caused by anything. In other words, he came from nothing?

maybe if you ponder that, you will get what I am saying.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well thanks for finally admitting that secular science is based on circular reasoning. You just admitted the evidence has to be interpreted in accordance with circular reasoning or scientific method which are one and the same.

It is now clear to me that secular science is your god

I see that you are still having a tough time grasping the concept of circular reasoning. And no I made no admission of circularity. What part was too hard to understand?

You are simply claiming circularity but cannot explain why.

 

[capumetu]

Yes, because we know why a painting is a painting. But it appears that you cannot tell the difference between this:

And this:

Leonardo DeCaprio?