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Trump's Disdain for Freedom/Responsibility of the Press

leibowde84

Veteran Member
There is nothing more dangerous that a leader who tries to use his power or influence to silence opposition. Debate, argumentation, discussion, and even insults can be acceptable (in certain circumstances) as long as there is no attempt to silence the other side completely. Our government only works when our elected officials are held accountable for the claims they make, whether on Twitter or in official press briefings. Now, Trump is trying to use his overwhelming and dangerous influence over his followers to paint the media in general as his opposition party, and his Senior Counselor (who is a master of deliberately misleading information) has literally told the media to "shut-up and listen".

The main responsibility of the media, in the political sphere, is to hold our elected officials accountable. When Trump or his surrogates make a claim that is either unreasonable or unsubstantiated, it is their responsibility to hammer him on it. They have to keep digging in for evidence to back up any claim to keep our President in line, unable to get away with false statements of any kind. There could be nothing more dangerous than a leader who is free to make up "alternative facts" to support their decision making or agenda.

It is critical that Trump doesn't favor right-leaning media like Fox News, and shut out more critical media outlets like, well, pretty much every other major network, as it will severely deteriorate our ability as citizens to stay informed. As citizens, it is our responsibility to get information from both sides of the political spectrum. Fox News is fine if you also get information from, say, CNN and MSNBC or Politico. On the other hand, sites like Breitbart (severe right) or Vox (severe left), known for misleading or "fake" news, should only be taken with a grain of salt and facts should never believed on their face alone.

But, let's see what the media is up against, and why they are being forced to push back so hard on Trump during his first week in office.

Here are the major falsehoods that Trump and his team has spread thus far:

1. Trump won the popular vote if you take away the millions of voters that voted for HC fraudulently. Registrations in multiple states do not support a claim of widespread voter fraud, as these registrations are due to voters having moved to different states. It is up to the local state governments to notify other states when voters move to their jurisdiction. There is not even an appearance of a willingness to vote fraudulently, as it isn't up to the voter to make this kind of correction. There is nothing illegal about being registered in multiple states. Fraud only exists when people actually vote twice, and there has been absolutely no evidence that this has happened in any significant amount. In fact, many in Trump's administration are registered in multiple states. So, does that mean that we have reason to believe that they all voted twice for Trump?

2. Crowd size at his inauguration. While this is not an important one, it is troubling that Trump was absolutely unable to let it go. He repeatedly brought it up, forcing media outlets to hit back with actual evidence showing that Trump was either lying or ignorant of the facts. This shows Trump's incredibly thin skin, which is a huge liability when it comes to being leader of the free world.

3. Regarding refugees from Syria ... "If you were a Muslim, you could come in, if you were a Christian, it was impossible." This is just patently false. Many Christian refugees have entered the US from Syria under Obama.

4. "Here in Philadelphia murder has been steady — I mean — just terribly increasing." They were the third-lowest last year since 1990.

5. "In our nation’s capital, killings have risen by 50 percent." Most recent data shows a decline

6. Americans don't "care at all" about Donald Trump's tax returns. Actually, all polls and statistical evidence show that a majority of Americans (and Republicans even) think that Trump should release his tax returns. And, this is for a very good reason. Trump has a ton of overseas business relationships. He also hasn't separated himself from his business dealings, as he has kept control in his immediate family. It is important to know who Trump owes money to and what deals are in the making so that we can spot conflicts of interest and hold Trump accountable for the decisions he makes.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
A good default position is to recognize that one is listening to a pathological liar. It was pronounced during campaigns, and it is not at all surprising to see that trend of pathological lying continue.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
A good default position is to recognize that one is listening to a pathological liar. It was pronounced during campaigns, and it is not at all surprising to see that trend of pathological lying continue.
That may be, but the press is very far from being pure as the driven snow. Not a single paper predicted his win, so they have much to make up for. That they are in denial, at their own exuberant incompetence, is instructive.

In the fake news and fake outrage department. When it was WIDELY reported that the much vilified and odious Steve Bannon had said, "The press should just shut up" that sounded terrible, but what the press consciously omitted was that was not all he said. He finished the sentence with, "and listen for awhile". Granted the full quote has very little sting but why should reality get in the way of a great headline even if it is well beyond misleading?
 
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Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Trump could never have gotten elected in an environment and culture where the news media, in general, was respected and trusted because it displayed integrity and objectivity. The news media culture, as a whole, in its feedback-driven devolution into sensationalism, incitation, subjectivity, de-emphasis on facts, and all-consuming drive for ratings, has had a significant hand, if not the most significant hand, in creating a world in which Trump could get elected in the first place.

The illusion of a free press based in journalistic integrity is about a big of a joke as Trump being our president.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
That may be, but the press is very far from being pure as the driven snow. Not a single paper predicted his win, so they have much to make up for. That they are in denial, at their own exuberant incompetence, is instructive.

In the fake news and fake outrage department. When it was WIDELY reported that the much vilified and odious Steve Bannon had said, "The press should just shut up" that sounded terrible, but what the press consciously omitted was that was not all he said. He finished the sentence with, "and listen for awhile". Granted the full quote has very little sting but why should reality get in the way of a great headline even if it is well beyond misleading?
There really is no difference between telling the media to "shut up" and telling the media to "shut up and listen for a while". Saying "shut up" basically means "shut up and listen".

Also, I agree that they got the polling wrong in regards to Trump's campaign. But, that is merely a mistake. There is nothing dishonest about it. They just didn't realize how many people were so disgusted with Clinton that they would actually support someone as outwardly crazy as Trump.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
There is nothing more dangerous that a leader who tries to use his power or influence to silence opposition. Debate, argumentation, discussion, and even insults can be acceptable (in certain circumstances) as long as there is no attempt to silence the other side completely. Our government only works when our elected officials are held accountable for the claims they make, whether on Twitter or in official press briefings. Now, Trump is trying to use his overwhelming and dangerous influence over his followers to paint the media in general as his opposition party, and his Senior Counselor (who is a master of deliberately misleading information) has literally told the media to "shut-up and listen".

The main responsibility of the media, in the political sphere, is to hold our elected officials accountable. When Trump or his surrogates make a claim that is either unreasonable or unsubstantiated, it is their responsibility to hammer him on it. They have to keep digging in for evidence to back up any claim to keep our President in line, unable to get away with false statements of any kind. There could be nothing more dangerous than a leader who is free to make up "alternative facts" to support their decision making or agenda.

It is critical that Trump doesn't favor right-leaning media like Fox News, and shut out more critical media outlets like, well, pretty much every other major network, as it will severely deteriorate our ability as citizens to stay informed. As citizens, it is our responsibility to get information from both sides of the political spectrum. Fox News is fine if you also get information from, say, CNN and MSNBC or Politico. On the other hand, sites like Breitbart (severe right) or Vox (severe left), known for misleading or "fake" news, should only be taken with a grain of salt and facts should never believed on their face alone.

But, let's see what the media is up against, and why they are being forced to push back so hard on Trump during his first week in office.

Here are the major falsehoods that Trump and his team has spread thus far:

1. Trump won the popular vote if you take away the millions of voters that voted for HC fraudulently. Registrations in multiple states do not support a claim of widespread voter fraud, as these registrations are due to voters having moved to different states. It is up to the local state governments to notify other states when voters move to their jurisdiction. There is not even an appearance of a willingness to vote fraudulently, as it isn't up to the voter to make this kind of correction. There is nothing illegal about being registered in multiple states. Fraud only exists when people actually vote twice, and there has been absolutely no evidence that this has happened in any significant amount. In fact, many in Trump's administration are registered in multiple states. So, does that mean that we have reason to believe that they all voted twice for Trump?

2. Crowd size at his inauguration. While this is not an important one, it is troubling that Trump was absolutely unable to let it go. He repeatedly brought it up, forcing media outlets to hit back with actual evidence showing that Trump was either lying or ignorant of the facts. This shows Trump's incredibly thin skin, which is a huge liability when it comes to being leader of the free world.

3. Regarding refugees from Syria ... "If you were a Muslim, you could come in, if you were a Christian, it was impossible." This is just patently false. Many Christian refugees have entered the US from Syria under Obama.

4. "Here in Philadelphia murder has been steady — I mean — just terribly increasing." They were the third-lowest last year since 1990.

5. "In our nation’s capital, killings have risen by 50 percent." Most recent data shows a decline

6. Americans don't "care at all" about Donald Trump's tax returns. Actually, all polls and statistical evidence show that a majority of Americans (and Republicans even) think that Trump should release his tax returns. And, this is for a very good reason. Trump has a ton of overseas business relationships. He also hasn't separated himself from his business dealings, as he has kept control in his immediate family. It is important to know who Trump owes money to and what deals are in the making so that we can spot conflicts of interest and hold Trump accountable for the decisions he makes.

One thing is far more dangerous---A lying press, with a political agenda.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
There really is no difference between telling the media to "shut up" and telling the media to "shut up and listen for a while". Saying "shut up" basically means "shut up and listen".
You are welcome to your distortions. I vehemently disagree. You are still stressing the "shut up" whereas the actual stress is on the "listen for awhile". It makes a world of difference. But hey, let's just keep the fake hysteria alive, eh?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Trump could never have gotten elected in an environment and culture where the news media, in general, was respected and trusted because it displayed integrity and objectivity. The news media culture, as a whole, in its feedback-driven devolution into sensationalism, incitation, subjectivity, de-emphasis on facts, and all-consuming drive for ratings, has had a significant hand, if not the most significant hand, in creating a world in which Trump could get elected in the first place.

The illusion of a free press based in journalistic integrity is about a big of a joke as Trump being our president.
Thank you, Kilgore. You presented this very well.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
One thing is far more dangerous---A lying press, with a political agenda.
Can you provide some example of when the mainstream press (CNN, MSNBC, CBS, etc.) knowingly lied with the intent to mislead? Remember, lying means that they knew/believed that what they were saying was not true and they failed to retract or correct what they claimed.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
You are welcome to your distortions. I vehemently disagree. You are still stressing the "shut up" whereas the actual stress is on the "listen for awhile". It makes a world of difference. But hey, let's just keep the fake hysteria alive, eh?
Troll if you want. You are free to do so. But, I am not trying to keep any fake hysteria alive. I am expressing my opinion. Telling the press to "shut up and listen for a while" is extremely dangerous, sets a terrible precedent, and is, imho, unamerican. Bannon is just upset that the press is calling out the Trump administration when they make incorrect or unsubstantiated claims. He is trying to setup a situation where Trump can just say whatever he want, claim things without evidence without consequences. That bothers me.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Troll if you want. You are free to do so. But, I am not trying to keep any fake hysteria alive. I am expressing my opinion. Telling the press to "shut up and listen for a while" is extremely dangerous, sets a terrible precedent, and is, imho, unamerican. Bannon is just upset that the press is calling out the Trump administration when they make incorrect or unsubstantiated claims. He is trying to setup a situation where Trump can just say whatever he want, claim things without evidence without consequences. That bothers me.
So, if I disagree with your esteemed opinion, I am a troll? How terribly thoughtful of you. @leibowde84 you are a far cry more intelligent than most posters on RF, but try to check your bias. I am not particularly enthralled by Trump either but he is a good sight better than the alternative America coughed up in its last hairball of an election.

I also see a great danger in a press that is inherently partisan, mean and vindictive. Is it any wonder they got Trump this time around?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
So, if I disagree with your esteemed opinion, I am a troll? How terribly thoughtful of you. @leibowde84 you are a far cry more intelligent than most posters on RF, but try to check your bias. I am not particularly enthralled by Trump either but he is a good sight better than the alternative America coughed up in its last hairball of an election.

I also see a great danger in a press that is inherently partisan, mean and vindictive. Is it any wonder they got Trump this time around?
I don't want them to be partisan either. But, I do want them to hold Trump and his surrogates responsible for every claim they make and demand support for those claims. There is nothing partisan about fact-checking. And, Trump has made some outlandish, false claims in the first week of his presidency.
 
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