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Trump's Defenders: What would it Take?

To those who do not think what Trump has done is wrong or impeachable, or that nothing has been "proved", I have a simple question.

What would, in your view, be an example of something Trump may have done, or has been accused of doing, related to Ukraine that you would have to admit is impeachable, if it was true?

For reference, below is a summary of the articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon:

Finally, and most pertinently, the House Judiciary Committee approved three articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon: the first for obstruction of justice, the second for abuse of power, and the third for defying House subpoenas during its impeachment investigation. Article 3 obviously did not allege a crime. But even in the first two articles, which did involve some potentially criminal conduct, the committee was at pains to avoid any reference to criminal statutes. Rather, as the committee staff observed in its careful study of the question, “high Crimes and Misdemeanors” is a phrase that reaches far beyond crimes to embrace “exceeding the powers of the office in derogation of those of another branch of government,” “behaving in a manner grossly incompatible with the proper function of the office,” and “employing the power of the office for an improper purpose or personal gain.”

Source: The Common Misconception About ‘High Crimes and Misdemeanors’

Also for reference, below is what the whistleblower complaint accused Trump of doing:

"In the course of my official duties, I have received information from multiple U.S. Government officials that the President of the United States is using the power of his office to solicit interference from a foreign country in the 2020 U.S. election. This interference includes, among other things, pressuring a foreign country to investigate one of the President’s main domestic political rivals. The President’s personal lawyer, Mr. Rudolph Giuliani, is a central figure in this effort."​

Follow up question: do you view any of these hypothetical things as less-than-impeachable, but still wrong, and worthy of some official response (such as censure by the Senate)?
 

leov

Well-Known Member
To those who do not think what Trump has done is wrong or impeachable, or that nothing has been "proved", I have a simple question.

What would, in your view, be an example of something Trump may have done, or has been accused of doing, related to Ukraine that you would have to admit is impeachable, if it was true?

For reference, below is a summary of the articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon:

Finally, and most pertinently, the House Judiciary Committee approved three articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon: the first for obstruction of justice, the second for abuse of power, and the third for defying House subpoenas during its impeachment investigation. Article 3 obviously did not allege a crime. But even in the first two articles, which did involve some potentially criminal conduct, the committee was at pains to avoid any reference to criminal statutes. Rather, as the committee staff observed in its careful study of the question, “high Crimes and Misdemeanors” is a phrase that reaches far beyond crimes to embrace “exceeding the powers of the office in derogation of those of another branch of government,” “behaving in a manner grossly incompatible with the proper function of the office,” and “employing the power of the office for an improper purpose or personal gain.”

Source: The Common Misconception About ‘High Crimes and Misdemeanors’

Also for reference, below is what the whistleblower complaint accused Trump of doing:

"In the course of my official duties, I have received information from multiple U.S. Government officials that the President of the United States is using the power of his office to solicit interference from a foreign country in the 2020 U.S. election. This interference includes, among other things, pressuring a foreign country to investigate one of the President’s main domestic political rivals. The President’s personal lawyer, Mr. Rudolph Giuliani, is a central figure in this effort."​

Follow up question: do you view any of these hypothetical things as less-than-impeachable, but still wrong, and worthy of some official response (such as censure by the Senate)?
They do not want impeach Trump, just to bleed him.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply - sorry, who just wants to bleed him? The Democrats?
Dems mostly. Biden sits on Ukrainian bomb himself. Neocons, rep and dem, have hands soaked in Ukrainian blood. So, who really wants to dig it out?
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Kind of a moot point. I could ask you the same question, basically. what would it take for you to admit that Adam Schiff and his cohorts are trying their best to overthrow an election and unseat a duly elected President?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Kind of a moot point. I could ask you the same question, basically. what would it take for you to admit that Adam Schiff and his cohorts are trying their best to overthrow an election and unseat a duly elected President?

Yes, that is exactly what they are trying to do. And that is what the Constitution gives them the power to do under these circumstances.

Now, can you answer the question in the OP? Is it possible for Trump to do anything that would cause you to say impeachment is the correct course of action?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Kind of a moot point. I could ask you the same question, basically. what would it take for you to admit that Adam Schiff and his cohorts are trying their best to overthrow an election and unseat a duly elected President?
Well, "overthrowing the election" would involve installing H. Clinton as President. I haven't seen any Democrats advocating that.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, "overthrowing the election" would involve installing H. Clinton as President. I haven't seen any Democrats advocating that.

Yep. It's not like the Dems are going to get one of their own into the office once they eliminate Trump. Pence is also quite bad from the political perspective, but he is definitely not a chaotic as the Trump. Pence might be a terrible president for his policies, but the complete lack of responsible government would change.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Yep. It's not like the Dems are going to get one of their own into the office once they eliminate Trump. Pence is also quite bad from the political perspective, but he is definitely not a chaotic as the Trump. Pence might be a terrible president for his policies, but the complete lack of responsible government would change.
Yep. And for some folks, Pence would be worse because without all the drama and incompetence, he might actually be more effective in implementing the far-right agenda.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Kind of a moot point. I could ask you the same question, basically. what would it take for you to admit that Adam Schiff and his cohorts are trying their best to overthrow an election and unseat a duly elected President?
Let's say that it's provable that Trump tried to extort the Biden
investigation in exchange for military aid. It's clearly wrong.
Given that, what is the best way to handle it?
Sanctions are in order, so that there's a disincentive for presidents
to behave thus.
- Remove him, & replace him with Pence?
- Impeachment but not removal?
- Censure?
- Other?
Different people will have different goals, so answers will vary.
I don't know what's best.
But I'd prefer some sanction which does the job, but leaves him in office.
(No President Pence.)
 
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BSM1

What? Me worry?
Yep. It's not like the Dems are going to get one of their own into the office once they eliminate Trump. Pence is also quite bad from the political perspective, but he is definitely not a chaotic as the Trump. Pence might be a terrible president for his policies, but the complete lack of responsible government would change.

What makes you think that there is not a plan to railroad Pence? That leaves President Pelosi.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What makes you think that there is not a plan to railroad Pence? That leaves President Pelosi.
It appears to take a while to set the stage with the public for impeachment.
There'd be too little time before Nov 2020 to do that.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Answer: Nothing.
That's the sad answer. He could shoot all Democrats in Congress, murder 4 Supreme Court Justices, declare himself to be an emperor and he'd be cheered on by members of the Trump cult.

That's the existential crisis we're facing. "Truth, justice and the American Way" are threatened by the Trump cult and must be defeated.

And the defeat might be hard given that I'm reading about those who are prepared to go to war when Trump is defeated next year or unlikely convicted by the Senate. The fanatics in the trump cult are prepared to start shooting and everyone needs to be ready.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
It appears to take a while to set the stage with the public for impeachment.
There'd be too little time before Nov 2020 to do that.
The House will pass a formal impeachment bill before then.

And part of the point is to convince those who are not members of the trump cult about his utter immorality and crimes and that the elected members of his cult are culpable enablers when it comes time to go to the polls.

It's like no limit poker - the time comes to go "all in" and to see what the cards have to say and this is such a political time.
 
Kind of a moot point. I could ask you the same question, basically. what would it take for you to admit that Adam Schiff and his cohorts are trying their best to overthrow an election and unseat a duly elected President?
Great, let’s both answer these questions. I’ll go first. Deal?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That's the sad answer. He could shoot all Democrats in Congress, murder 4 Supreme Court Justices, declare himself to be an emperor and he'd be cheered on by members of the Trump cult.
I'll wager the poster ruled out that as possible,
One should be realistic in reading short answers.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
They do not want impeach Trump, just to bleed him.

You think?

Trump Has Spent $115 Million On Golf Trips ― Or 287 Years Of Presidential Salary

With his Thanksgiving vacation, President Donald Trump’s golf hobby has now cost Americans an estimated $115 million in travel and security expenses ― the equivalent of 287 years of the presidential salary he frequently boasts about not taking.

Of that amount, many hundreds of thousands ― perhaps millions ― of dollars have gone into his own cash registers, as Secret Service agents, White House staff and other administration officials stay and eat at his hotels and golf courses.

The exact amount cannot be determined because the White House refuses to reveal how many Trump aides have been staying at his properties when he visits them and will not turn over receipts for the charges incurred.

... Trump Has Spent $115 Million On Golf Trips ― Or 287 Years Of Presidential Salary
 
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