Trump to Withdraw from Iran Nuclear Deal

[Koldo]

A false peace beats open conflict.

Agreed. But it doesn't have to be one or the other, as I see it.
Improving the relationship with Iran, in general, is much more productive than expecting Iran not to get armed to teeth with nuclear bombs. And yes, I understand that breaking this deal didn't work towards improving this relationship, but I sincerely believe that it is still doable... as long as politicians don't act stupid...

By the way, how is your fallout shelter doing ?

I recall that Israel wanted to attack Iran directly, but failed to get Obama's support.
I don't trust Trump to show the same restraint.
If we were serious & sincere about ridding the mid-east of nukes, we should start with Israel.

That's quite the problem, isn't it ?

 

[columbus]

I do hear what you are saying, Tom, but aren't you forgetting that Iran has repeatedly claimed that it has no nuclear ambitions and that they were not developing nuclear weapons? They have steadfastly claimed to be enriching uranium for non-military uses. Nuclear power plants and medical equipment are not particularly effective tools to protect one from a hostile foreign power.

I believe that they were lying.
It's not like that's particularly uncommon concerning military development by any country. Obviously, they had an existential threat from a nuclear power. Lying is what I would do under the circumstances.
Tom

 

[Phantasman]

@Shad
@Phantasman
@ all other supporters of Trump's withdrawal

There are reasons for my common harping on the history between Iran and the USA.
From toppling their democracy to launching a devastating invasion to putting them on the Axis of Evil hitlist and start to invade it, the USA has given Iran VERY good reasons to get a nuclear deterrent.
What the deal, such as it was, did was give the USA about 10 years to demonstrate that it was no longer the violent and rapacious sworn enemy that WE have thoroughly demonstrated ourselves to be. Then Iran would not have such a need to defend itself from us!
That is the only true path to peace, and Trump just jumped the rails.
Tom

Iran is a theocracy, just a redefined way of seeing dictator.

At the top of Iran's power structure is the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who succeeded Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the father of the Iranian Revolution, upon Khomeini's death in 1989. Khomeini and Khamenei are the only two men to have held the office since the founding of the Islamic Republic in 1979.- pbs.org

Iran's complex and unusual political system combines elements of a modern Islamic theocracy with democracy. A network of elected and unelected institutions influence each other in the government's power structure.- wiki

In the end, the Mullah's are in control, and their Qu'ran view to destroy all Jews and Infidels (USA, etc.) that does not accept Islam is paramount. Their theocratic views are being instituted beyond their own borders into Syria, Yemen and North Africa.

You, as a pacifist to this emergence, are trying to tout it's freedom to occur. But as many who have emerged from the binding truth of Iran, who has lived there and has warned us of the regime, and the way of life (for women) in Iran, you simply accept it since it doesn't occupy the area in which you live.

The Swede's, Britain, Germany, and France are learning the hard way as Sharia Law (exclusive to Iran) is taking hold in those area's. Be blind to it, if you wish.

Christianity nor Judaism has any place in Iran nor the area's they are controlling. This includes Buddhism.

To see this theocracy as anything but dangerous to free thinking is the trap people like you fall into before your eventual induction, IMO.

 

[columbus]

To see this theocracy as anything but dangerous to free thinking is the trap people like you fall into before your eventual induction, IMO.

It isn't a danger to me.
The worst danger from islamicists I recall was from Saudi Arabia, where 9/11 was planned, funded, manned and launched.
Frankly, the whole problem here is that the USA is so dangerous.
Tom

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

The U.S. didn't give its word,

Yes, it did. Sanctions were lifted when Iran agreed to the terms of the deal. All you are doing is arguing about the process which is completely irrelevant.

They could delay it for longer. First Iran has to be notified that there are concerns at a site; Iran is then allowed to respond and attempt to clarify. Only after this process can the IAEA request access and the 24 day period kicks in. How long does Iran have to respond? It isn't specified. How long will it take the IAEA to consider the response? It isn't specified.

It doesn't matter now because no one will be inspecting those sites. How is that a better situation?

 

[YmirGF]

I believe that they were lying.
It's not like that's particularly uncommon concerning military development by any country. Obviously, they had an existential threat from a nuclear power. Lying is what I would do under the circumstances.
Tom

Oh, I see. Now I understand why we would want to negotiate a deal with a pack of serial liars. Makes sense.

 

[Phantasman]

It isn't a danger to me.
The worst danger from islamicists I recall was from Saudi Arabia, where 9/11 was planned, funded, manned and launched.
Frankly, the whole problem here is that the USA is so dangerous.
Tom

Obviously not that dangerous. You being able to post freely your views says something.

 

[columbus]

Oh, I see. Now I understand why we would want to negotiate a deal with a pack of serial liars. Makes sense.

We can't negotiate when both parties are serial liars.
Neither can Iran.

So what makes anybody think that Trump will do any better? The current situation is worse than when we had something, and now that it's the USA against everyone I don't see what Trump thinks he is going to accomplish.
Other than pander to his base at the expense of the nation, again.
Tom

 

[columbus]

Obviously not that dangerous. You being able to post freely your views says something.

Dangerous to other countries like Iran.
Me being able to post is utterly irrelevant.
Tom

 

[YmirGF]

We can't negotiate when both parties are serial liars.
Neither can Iran.

So what makes anybody think that Trump will do any better? The current situation is worse than when we had something, and now that it's the USA against everyone I don't see what Trump thinks he is going to accomplish.
Other than pander to his base at the expense of the nation, again.
Tom

Hehe. While I am desperately trying to make some kind of sense out of your position, Tom, I know I don't have the answers. Let's see how things go with Lil' Kimmy first. If he manages to pull off some kind of deal with North Korea who knows what is possible with Iran? Making a deal with North Korea WILL buy Trump some breathing room and WILL give the Iranians (and Europeans) some pause to their hysteria.

 

[columbus]

Let's see how things go with Lil' Kimmy first. If he manages to pull off some kind of deal with North Korea who knows what is possible with Iran?

Given that the USA doesn't honor it's agreements, I don't see how much leverage Trump has in negotiations with Kim. You can't really negotiate with an entity like the USA, as it is at the moment. Everything is a political football. Truth doesn't matter as much as partisan politics and pandering to the base.
Thanks Trump.
Tom

 

[YmirGF]

Given that the USA doesn't honor it's agreements, I don't see how much leverage Trump has in negotiations with Kim. You can't really negotiate with an entity like the USA, as it is at the moment. Everything is a political football. Truth doesn't matter as much as partisan politics and pandering to the base.
Thanks Trump.
Tom

Therein lies the danger of what Obama did though. He unilaterally entered into an agreement, totally bypassing congress. That is within the power of POTUS to do so, but something so vital is normally tossed to congress to approve or disapprove. If this was to do with an agreement that the congress had gone along with, I could readily understand your point. I cannot imagine that the other world leaders are not fully aware of this peculiarity of the American political system and fully realized that Obama was going it alone on this one.

 

[columbus]

Therein lies the danger of what Obama did though. He unilaterally entered into an agreement, totally bypassing congress. That is within the power of POTUS to do so, but something so vital is normally tossed to congress to approve or disapprove. If this was to do with an agreement that the congress had gone along with, I could readily understand your point. I cannot imagine that the other world leaders are not fully aware of this peculiarity of the American political system and fully realized that Obama was going it alone on this one.

This was a Congress who had made it a stated goal to undermine Obama no matter what.
The Republicans are more interested in political power than the good of the nation.
Like nominating Garland for the SCOTUS, or the ACA, the Republicans made it clear, in word and deed, that what matters is the Republicans and their donors.
Not the USA.
That's why I don't vote for Republicans any more, ever.
Tom

 

[YmirGF]

This was a Congress who had made it a stated goal to undermine Obama no matter what.
The Republicans are more interested in political power than the good of the nation.
Like nominating Garland for the SCOTUS, or the ACA, the Republicans made it clear, in word and deed, that what matters is the Republicans and their donors.
Not the USA.
Tom

So, the President acted alone and engaged a group who were well known for lying through their teeth. What could possibly go wrong with that kind of scenario?

 

[columbus]

So, the President acted alone and engaged a group who were well known for lying through their teeth. What could possibly go wrong with that kind of scenario?

Lots
But Obama had no other choice, because the Deplorables had majorities in both houses on Capitol Hill.
Tom

 

[YmirGF]

Lots
But Obama had no other choice, because the Deplorables had majorities in both houses on Capitol Hill.
Tom

Now keep going with that thought and you might just see where I am coming from.

Pro tip: It's tied to the idea that Obama had lost both the Senate and the House due to the foibles of the American electorate. Some might argue that he had no mandate, whatsoever, to negotiate such a deal.

 

[columbus]

Now keep going with that thought and you might just see where I am coming from.

???

The USA just made itself mostly irrelevant to reducing the threat of continued violence in the Gulf Oil region.

I am sure that Putin is laughing his butt off at the useful idiocy of the "useful idiot" he managed to get into the White House.
Tom

 

[columbus]

I know that politics makes strange bedfellows.
But evangelical Christians and Russian autocrats?

Whoodda thunk it?
Tom

 

[YmirGF]

???

The USA just made itself mostly irrelevant to reducing the threat of continued violence in the Gulf Oil region.

I am sure that Putin is laughing his butt off at the useful idiocy of the "useful idiot" he managed to get into the White House.
Tom

Aside from strengthening relations with the two most powerful countries in the Middle East, of course. (Saudi Arabia and Israel.)

 

[columbus]

Pro tip: It's tied to the idea that Obama had lost both the Senate and the House due to the foibles of the American electorate. Some might argue that he had no mandate, whatsoever, to negotiate such a deal.

Who do you think did?
Tom