Trump Supporters: Where do you draw the line?

[Mr Spinkles]

You must have misses post #11...?

You mean #9? Sorry I did miss that this answered the question ... kind of ...

Is there anything Trump could do in service of your agenda that you wouldn’t condone? I am talking about a situation where the means don’t justify the ends, even if you agree with the ends.

 

[icehorse]

I wouldn’t support him if he added unnecessary regulations and costly red tape.

Yeah!, who needs clean air and water and safety standards?

Let's trust the oligarchs to do the right things for us. Let's be grateful for the oligarchs who gut our cities and give us Walmarts and $10/hour, no-benefits work, hooray !!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

There is such a thing as abuse of power. Look at governor Northam. He ignored the state's own laws (which specifically PROHIBIT wearing of masks) in order to change them by executive order. Now the law not only makes no sense in original context but has subverted its context to make something illegal to wear but required to wear (the **** sort or nonsense is that?!?)

An executive order, by the way, should not be a blanket fiat action, but actually support the Bill of Rights (and possibly the Constitution proper and the other amendments). Northam defied this, declaring his executive order at odds with most of the 1st Amendment and 10th Amendment easily, and probably many of the others.

Bill of Rights

Yes, this would be abuse of power.

If Trump ever proposed an executive order that abridged the Bill of Rights, yes this is also abuse of power. For example, if he said that it is "illegal not to believe in God" (an actual Vermont law) because we are a Christian nation. And made an executive order to this effect. Ditto for saying "New rules, the media can't report anything bad about me." These run afoul of the 1st Amendment. However, it's actually rather hard for a conservative to do that, as they tend to be in favor of the Bill of Rights (unless they're RINOs like George Bush and his Patriot Act).

To be more specific about my political views, while I am a conservative, I do not call myself a Republican.

I am a Log Cabin anarcho-capitalist. Or a minarchist. I believe in my own LGBT rights, and I believe in tiny government. And I believe we should probably to a large portion downsize our own government.

I would probably prefer Trump abolish the current rules and dismantle the country in favor of a much smaller government. Basically just the Bill of Rights, and do away with the three branches of government. If he did that though, he'd stop being my president. Of course, that's self-explanatory (no executive branch).

Thanks. What if Governor Northam had his security forces violently disperse peaceful protestors outside the governor’s mansion ... that would be an abuse of power, right? (The First Amendment?)

What if he jailed people accused of a misdemeanor crime and mass incarcerated their children without due process (the Fourteenth Amendment)?

These would be pretty flagrant violations of your small government philosophy, right? Literally violence against peaceful protestors and incarceration of innocent children. Talk about abuse of power. Right ...?

 

[Nakosis]

I'd imagine that if Trump ran as a Democrat, that'd be a deal-breaker for most Republicans.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Sure. I dont agree with major fortune 500 companies paying less tax than someone working at McDonald's. The wealthy ought to pay their fair share of taxes like the rest of us. More than 750 dollars if the allegations are true.

I think illegals upon capture, shouldn't be separated from their children provided they are not employing a 'rent a child*' whom poses as their child as a fair number of them actually and really do.

Trump should focus more on accommodation involving issues and looking more at the art of compromise rather than the art of the deal to break deadlocks and stagnation on a variety of issues.

How about Biden now? For the record?



*Yea. Rent a Child does exist. Like renting a U Haul I suppose.

Thanks - an actual answer. That was refreshing.

Sure. I do not defend Biden playing a key role in US foreign policy with Ukraine, given his son’s position at a major Ukraine company. This was inappropriate. At a minimum, it created a potential conflict of interest, whether or not an actual conflict occurred.

I would not defend Biden if he hesitated to unambiguously condemn Antifa and rioting.

I would not defend Biden if he had distorted the reality of Ebola or Swine Flu, two pandemics that occurred during the Obama/Biden administration, and put his own political ambitions ahead of public health guidance.

I would not defend Biden if the FBI concluded that a foreign country (let’s say, China) was trying to help him win and he actively denied and undermined US efforts to keep countries like China out of our elections.

I could go on. For me, this exercise is easy. But that’s because I put America First.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I'd imagine that if Trump ran as a Democrat, that'd be a deal-breaker for most Republicans.

Thanks, Nakosis. I am afraid the OP may have been unclear. Obviously if Trump supported policies that Republicans do not agree with, then, they would not support Trump.

This goes without saying.

I am asking a more difficult question. Are there ways in which Trump might promote policies you agree with, or his own re-election (which you also agree with), that you would view as inappropriate?

I am talking about corruption, how he treats his opponents, cheating, conflicts of interest, abuse of power, not complying with the normal checks and balances of power ... that kind of thing. Not just “If he was a Democrat I wouldn’t support him”.

This is harder than that. This requires putting America First.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'm fascinated, having read over a dozen answers so far, that the conservatives among us have all said they wouldn't forgive Trump for anything liberal at all --- but never said they wouldn't support if, for example, he shot Nancy Pelosi to death in the Rotunda, or raped AOC. I am left to suppose those things wouldn't bother such conservatives in a President.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

This is true. Every president seems to have some sort of scandal or area of controversy. Not just Nixon and Watergate, but there was LBJ and Vietnam, not to mention the numerous scandals involving the Reagan Administration (Iran-Contra, James Watt, Edwin Meese, S&L debacle, Wedtech). And some people still think Reagan was a great president. He was known as the Teflon President, since nothing would ever stick to him. Clinton was another Teflon President who seemingly got a pass despite numerous scandals.

Of course, none of this excuses anything Trump has done, and it doesn't mean he's not a bad president. But why would anyone think that any of the previous presidents were any better? At least, with all the opposition Trump is getting from the media and throughout society, we know he's not a Teflon President.

I think this is a very fair point.

What I would say is this: the harm Trump is capable of greatly exceeds the harm he’s actually done to our country. And he’s done a lot of harm. If you can’t see this ... you haven’t been paying attention.

We know this, because Trump has been repeatedly blocked and stymied by the FBI, by the Democrats, his own Party, his own “adults in the room” advisors ... in some cases (like child separation) by his own children. What happens in his next term, now that he’s largely purged his administration of the “adults in the room” and been essentially exonerated for obstruction of justice (Mueller investigation) and for abuse of power (Ukraine)? We are very, very lucky that he is not a war-monger .... but some unforeseen crisis, like COVID-19, was inevitable. And a war in his second term - whether started by us, or not - is still possible. No one can predict what he will do if/when these things happen, but we know we are not well-served entrusting enormous power to a petulant child.

People take far too much comfort in the fact the car hasn’t completely careened off the highway with Trump at the wheel, without appreciating the reason that has happened is because he has repeatedly bumped into guardrails. Those guardrails have been severely damaged in his first term. What happens when they fail? The whole point is to avoid total disaster in the first place, not wait until it happens. Unfortunately in some respects it is already too late; we are seeing our first major failure of Trump with COVID. There will be more.

Remember this is the guy who told stories in 2016 about heroic American servicemen in the early 20th century, who would dip bullets in pigs’ blood before executing Muslim insurgents in the Philippines (no really, he said that - go look it up). He said we need more torture. He said we should target and kill the families of suspected terrorists. Rex Tillerson and other former advisors say they repeatedly had to tell Trump that they could not do what he was asking - it would be illegal - and he would then go into a rage. Trump threatened to bomb cultural sites in Iran - which would be a crime against humanity. In private meetings, he’s asked his advisors why he can’t have more nuclear weapons “like other Presidents had”. He told Woodward that he has a “new super weapon” like no one has seen before. He threatened North Korea, an unstable nuclear power with “fire and fury”. He Tweeted that his Tweets are sufficient notice to Congress and justification for military strikes.

Second, the type of harm Trump is doing is the kind that undermines our democracy going forward. Richard Nixon was going to be impeached on a bipartisan basis - and he still released his tax returns. After he resigned, we still lived in a democracy. LBJ escalated the Vietnam war; the American public debated, protested, voted, and as a result LBJ did not run again. Again, after LBJ, we still lived in a democracy. A democracy is capable of learning, and correcting its errors.

Trump short-circuits this. For example, when he tried to use US military aid to bully an ally into investigating his political rival ... that doesn’t just dent the roof of our democracy. It damages the smoke detectors.

 

[Kenny]

Trump supporters, and those who routinely defend him on RF: could you please list three or four things that you wouldn’t defend, minimize, or excuse, if Trump did those things?

I don't excuse or defend his response to that Russian Climate Change girl... even if she didn't know what she is talking about.

What if audio came out where Trump was mocking evangelical Christians in private?

Wouldn't excuse it... but still would vote for him because the other option isn't an option

What if he clearly loses the election, and refuses to accept the results?

That depends if there are grounds for it. I know that the Democrats still haven't accepted the last results too.

I doubt if he wouldn't accept a clear loss.

I want you to be on record before it happens, next time. Thanks.

Did that help?

 

[metis]

Why does one have to vote for either Trump or Biden if their conscience is truly bothered by both?

 

[Mindmaster]

First of all ...

View attachment 44206

Secondly: you still haven’t answered the question of the OP. Do you plan to do that or should I assume you’ll make excuses for Trump no matter what?

I'm not making excuses for him just bemused by the leftist lack of introspection.

The OP could have just as easily been asked about Biden and would have been more valid. You're mad because I won't entertain your sick fantasy, but it has nothing to do with Trump or me, lol.

I'll answer your question if you tell me why leftists will vote for whoever has a D by their name even if that person is hot garbage. Until then, nope... I'm not even going to pretend this is anything but an attempt to cater to the delusion of grandeur that most Democratic voters have

But, I can simply say... It doesn't matter what Trump says or how people feel about that, it matters what he does. If I feel he's doing his best with things I support him. If not, I won't. As long as he looks like he's trying to fulfill his promises I'll support. It seems that's all he does, so good luck changing my mind on that.

With the Dems, it doesn't matter what they say they won't do it. They'll do something else because they're taking money from China and all sorts of other foreigners. They don't work for us, they work for them.

 

[Mindmaster]

I'm fascinated, having read over a dozen answers so far, that the conservatives among us have all said they wouldn't forgive Trump for anything liberal at all --- but never said they wouldn't support if, for example, he shot Nancy Pelosi to death in the Rotunda, or raped AOC. I am left to suppose those things wouldn't bother such conservatives in a President.

This is obviously absurd. Conservatives are most vehement where the concern is the protection or safety of others. Liberals are largely fine with misery happening to people that don't line up with them. This is just a 'race' the liberals can't win, lol. The right is clear on this: They don't care what your politics are you deserve to be safe. Apparently, the left thinks that's optional. By default, that sort of makes the right better people on the whole.

Wanting Pelosi or AOC to lose an election is a lot different than wanting something bad to physically happen to them. But, as usual, the left projects their way of handling things onto others because they think the other guy is just like them. They're not, but when do the facts matter, lol.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

This is obviously absurd. Conservatives are most vehement where the concern is the protection or safety of others. Liberals are largely fine with misery happening to people that don't line up with them. This is just a 'race' the liberals can't win, lol. The right is clear on this: They don't care what your politics are you deserve to be safe. Apparently, the left thinks that's optional. By default, that sort of makes the right better people on the whole.

Wanting Pelosi or AOC to lose an election is a lot different than wanting something bad to physically happen to them. But, as usual, the left projects their way of handling things onto others because they think the other guy is just like them. They're not, but when do the facts matter, lol.

All I did was point out that the ONLY things conservatives in THIS thread said they would hold against Trump was any liberal policy at all. They were not concerned about whether demeaning women by claiming he can even grab their....junk...or that a well-known individual was "bleeding badly from a face-lift."

And I find your statement that Conservatives are most vehement where the concern is the protections of others. Mask-wearing, in this time of plague, is all about the protection of others, and conservatives are the most vehement in their opposition to it. That is just fact.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The core of the Trump cult is a triumvirate composed of the worthless, the spineless, and the clueless. A handful of them, mostly found in the latter category, may have their come-to-Jesus moment, but most are effectively irredeemable. For the most part, this tripartite cancer needs to be culturally contained and politically crushed using every ethical tool at our disposal, and this will be the task irrespective of who wins in November.

 

[Mindmaster]

All I did was point out that the ONLY things conservatives in THIS thread said they would hold against Trump was any liberal policy at all. They were not concerned about whether demeaning women by claiming he can even grab their....junk...or that a well-known individual was "bleeding badly from a face-lift."

And I find your statement that Conservatives are most vehement where the concern is the protections of others. Mask-wearing, in this time of plague, is all about the protection of others, and conservatives are the most vehement in their opposition to it. That is just fact.

If you think what Trump said was strange apparently you never been in a locker room in your life, and you haven't heard what the ladies in the women's bathroom are saying. (Women are far far far worse on this... usually...) If we're having a grope-o-meter between me and my wife it's me who's been groped more. I'm far less concerned about how Trump expresses his sexuality versus how he does his job. I also don't care if he insults 'news' personalities who spend about 99% of their time denigrating him. Why would I? It's their beef.

Masks will stop bacteria which are orders of magnitude larger than viruses. 96% of any viruses will go right through a mask. That's science fact, and the mask wearing is about virtue signalling more than anything. Would I wish it to work? Yes! Do I do it anyway knowing full well it does nothing? Yes! It helps people feel better, but effectiveness... Nearly zero, lol. I'm under no illusion that they will prevent covid infections now or in the future or even that they ever did. If you can fit 100's of virus particles through the air holes in the mask it's just isn't gonna do a thing... The difference is conservatives know this for the most part. Hence, the opposition... If you made the mask good enough to stop viruses you'd not be able to breathe. =D If mask wearing was doing something it'd be over by now. 40% of COVID cases were regular mask users -- that stat tells you about all you need to know.

(not including full biohazard suits which are completely sealed and have their own air supply, of course, lol)

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Masks will stop bacteria which are orders of magnitude larger than viruses. 96% of any viruses will go right through a mask. That's science fact, and the mask wearing is about virtue signalling more than anything. Would I wish it to work? Yes! Do I do it anyway knowing full well it does nothing? Yes! It helps people feel better, but effectiveness... Nearly zero, lol.

Just out of curiousity then, can you explain why medical professionals (who may well not be as wise as you are) wear masks habitually, for the protection of themselves and their patients? Is it a kind of placebo, do you suppose?

Or are they all just plain ignorant?

Also, if you wouldn't mind, could you comment on what the Mayo Clinic (who I understand have some small amount of medical knowledge) says about masks and protection? Can face masks protect against the coronavirus?

 

[Watchmen]

Okay but that wasn’t the question. What would be an example of a pardon you would think is appropriate and not just corruption?

Don’t really know. Guess I don’t do well with speculation and hypotheticals. I guess I’ll know it when I see it.

 

[Watchmen]

Yeah!, who needs clean air and water and safety standards?

Let's trust the oligarchs to do the right things for us. Let's be grateful for the oligarchs who gut our cities and give us Walmarts and $10/hour, no-benefits work, hooray !!

I said “unnecessary.” I suppose what is and is not “unnecessary” lies in the eye of the beholder. For example, you criticize the low wage, but there is some evidence that increasing the minimum wage just leads big companies to go automated and small companies to fold. Have you really achieve a higher purpose by driving businesses out and increasing unemployment? I don’t want to derail this thread so will stop there, although it’s fascinating that you take my post and run to the extreme position that I am against ALL regulations. That’s simply not true and I would caution you against such extremism in the future.

 

[Mindmaster]

Just out of curiousity then, can you explain why medical professionals (who may well not be as wise as you are) wear masks habitually, for the protection of themselves and their patients? Is it a kind of placebo, do you suppose?

Or are they all just plain ignorant?

Also, if you wouldn't mind, could you comment on what the Mayo Clinic (who I understand have some small amount of medical knowledge) says about masks and protection? Can face masks protect against the coronavirus?

They still protect versus bacteria, and for most of what doctors do that's important - for the patient, not really them, per Se. Mayo clinic can say whatever it wants, but it's just physics not something you can debate about. If the virus is X size and the holes in the mask are 100x wider it's not doing ****. People can think whatever they want, but this is not how filtration works. Your filter has to be smaller than the thing to be removed or it doesn't work. Can it help? Maybe, it'll stop a lunger or two but truth is most people don't have these symptoms. Most are asymptomatic spreaders who are spreading aerosolized virus or via contact with surfaces. Mask does nothing for that, never did, still won't.

But, no reason to argue. Food coloring particles are larger than virus particles... Get two glasses of water, put food coloring in one and leave the other empty. Use a rubber band to strap your mask over the top of it and see what color the water is after you pour it through the mask. If there is any color in the water the mask isn't going to stop a virus. Plain and simple and nearly anyone can do this test. Any filtration media would have to pass a similar test via a lab, so you're basically doing what they do. Food coloring 'fail' in this test indicates it's not even going to stop a majority of the bacteria. If it stops about half the color it's pretty decent... Still zero on viruses though, lol.

 

[icehorse]

I said “unnecessary.” I suppose what is and is not “unnecessary” lies in the eye of the beholder. For example, you criticize the low wage, but there is some evidence that increasing the minimum wage just leads big companies to go automated and small companies to fold. Have you really achieve a higher purpose by driving businesses out and increasing unemployment? I don’t want to derail this thread so will stop there, although it’s fascinating that you take my post and run to the extreme position that I am against ALL regulations. That’s simply not true and I would caution you against such extremism in the future.

given the context of this thread, i don't think my inferences were unreasonable