Trump supporters getting a taste of that "maga" magic.

[Underhill]

I agree that mechanization is a reality that is just a part of progress. I get that. Still, why not just have mechanized factories here in America? I don't see it as a justification for free trade or outsourcing, so with all due respect, I'm going to discard that argument and consider it irrelevant.

The issue is wages. By imposing tariffs, it will compel employers to pay Americans better wages which will put upward pressure on wages in other sectors of the economy as well.

I see most businesses as being Machiavellian in all of this. They'll try to find whatever way to undercut or avoid having to pay people what they're worth.

Whether it's through outsourcing to countries where people are so desperate they'll take whatever wage they can get, or by turning the blind eye to employers exploiting undocumented workers as another way of getting cheap labor.

I've seen it accompanied by blatant misinformation and malice towards American workers, such as the idea that "they do jobs Americans won't do" (patently false) or that Americans are "lazy," "spoiled," "don't have a good work ethic," "too demanding," etc. These are the same people who claim that they "need" to outsource and/or hire undocumented workers.

It's just pure labor exploitation.

If they want robots to do all the work, okay, fine. I have no problem with that, as long as the people get some sort of unconditional monthly income where they can still get enough to live and not have to worry about work or struggle on two or three jobs just to survive. That's no way to live, yet that's what tens of millions of people in America have to do every day. The worst part is, there's no practical or logical reason behind these gross disparities, other than some people's philosophical (aka "religious") view that "that's how things ought to be." Because capitalism.

My point was that tariffs won't solve the problem. Globally we need to recognize that our technology is supplanting us (at least in large part) and adjust the work week to compensate.

 

[ecco]

Because we don't make enough at reasonable prices to supply our own needs.

Because Americans like to buy big SUV's instead of small Cruzes.

My emphasis in following quote...

Then I guess they shouldn't have closed all those steel mills and turned an entire section of the country into what is commonly known as the Rust Belt. Then we'd make enough domestically to meet the demand. That was a choice we made, as a country, and it was a misguided choice.

Who is the "they" that closed the steel mills? It was the owners because steel production was no longer profitable. Decisions to close businesses that are unprofitable are not misguided.

Is that really so hard to understand?

We now have the chance to make better choices.

The only way to make American steel profitable is to impose tariffs on imported steel to raise the price of imported steel. If you do that, the American consumer will have to pay more for everything that contains steel. Is that your "solution"?

 

[ecco]

Obviously, businesses will choose the lower price, but that's the whole reason for imposing tariffs, in order to equalize and balance trade.

OK. Let's impose tariffs to raise the price of steel. Then all Americans will have to pay more for all products containing steel.

I'd like to hear Trump tell that clearly to all middle class Americans.

On the other hand, the steel manufacturers in Pennsylvania could lower their prices to compete better, although they wouldn't necessarily have to pay their workers less.

(Although even if they did, there's a solution for that, too.)

I'd like to hear your "solution".

 

[ecco]

But if we raise the wages and improve the working conditions, stores will have to pay substantially more for domestic fruits and vegetables. That will cause more demand for imported fruits and vegetables. And then Trump will impose more tariffs on fruits and vegetables. And on and on it goes.

Americans do not pick crops.

There are many members of my extended family (all Americans) who would disagree with you on this point.

Then they are exceptions to the rule - by far.

In part this is due to low wages and poor working conditions for pickers.

And whose fault is that?

The demand of Americans to have low cost, high quality food.

Price controls are the answer. It's not because the workers earn too much, it's because the owners demand too much. The wealthiest 1% take too much money, and that's where the focus should be.

Force them to lower their prices and raise wages for their workers, and things would get much, much better - almost overnight.

There are no simplistic solutions to complex problems. Strawberry farmers in Florida are not in the top 1%. Apple growers in New York and California are not in the top 1%. For all farmers it's a continuous balancing act.

It's obvious you have never owned a business, especially a working farm. How do you lower prices and raise wages?

 

[Stevicus]

My point was that tariffs won't solve the problem. Globally we need to recognize that our technology is supplanting us (at least in large part) and adjust the work week to compensate.

Tariffs might be seen more as a stopgap measure.

This has been an issue ever since the founding of America, when Jefferson and Hamilton had a rift over the issue. Jefferson felt that the US economy should be based on a few "natural" commodities from the land, while importing manufactured goods from Europe (without tariffs), so that America might be spared the filth and unrest accompanied by industrialism. Hamilton argued that America should build up its own industrial base so that we could become more self-sufficient and not dependent upon foreign imports.

The best proof that would demonstrate which approach was better can be found in the results of the Civil War.

The South was an agrarian economy, totally dependent upon a few commodities for its income. Everything else had to be imported, which is why they were against tariffs. In contrast, the North was an industrial powerhouse, and they supported tariffs. New York City alone had more industrial might than all of the Southern states combined. Springfield, Massachusetts produced more guns than all of the South combined.

In my view, the only things we should be importing are those things that can not be mined nor grown in the United States. The only manufactured goods we should be importing are those we don't have the technology to produce ourselves, but if we are truly so backward as that, then we are in a vulnerable and unenviable position. This would indicate that America has much greater problems than simple tariffs.

It's not about jobs. It's about national security and survival. If Americans don't know how to make stuff anymore (which is implied by the desperate calls for free trade), then we are in serious, serious trouble.

 

[Stevicus]

Who is the "they" that closed the steel mills? It was the owners because steel production was no longer profitable. Decisions to close businesses that are unprofitable are not misguided.

Is that really so hard to understand?

No, but if you're only looking at the surface, then you're oversimplifying the issue.

The only way to make American steel profitable is to impose tariffs on imported steel to raise the price of imported steel. If you do that, the American consumer will have to pay more for everything that contains steel. Is that your "solution"?

The real question is why imported steel is so much cheaper, especially if it has to be shipped further. Is it because foreign manufacturers are more efficient? Are they more intelligent than their US counterparts? Are the American steel mill owners nothing more than incompetent boobs who just can't compete? Maybe they're just too greedy and asking for too much money? Could that be it?

Oh, I know what you'll say. You'll blame US workers for demanding too much money. You'll blame the workers and the common people. But it's the owners who charge too much to feed their own greed. They live in mansions while the common workers live in much more modest housing.

The solution is very easy. Force the business owners to pay higher wages, but lower their prices. Government can do that very easily with a stroke of a pen. That way, we can still have tariffs and the American consumers won't have to pay one cent more.

Don't you think that's a great solution?

 

[Stevicus]

Then they are exceptions to the rule - by far.

Now you're moving the goalposts. Before you said Americans don't pick crops. Are you now willing to retract that earlier statement?

The demand of Americans to have low cost, high quality food.

It's also the greed of the owners.

There are no simplistic solutions to complex problems. Strawberry farmers in Florida are not in the top 1%. Apple growers in New York and California are not in the top 1%. For all farmers it's a continuous balancing act.

It's obvious you have never owned a business, especially a working farm. How do you lower prices and raise wages?

By owners taking less money. The problem is not as complex as you're stating, and your attempt at belittling me or lecturing me will fall on deaf ears. It's better to be a part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Greed is destroying this country from within. Can't you see that?

I do know that the idea of the small family farm is becoming a thing of the past. Most farming is corporate nowadays. Rich, corporate executives screwing the lower class workers and consumers. This is what you're defending?

 

[fantome profane]

The real question is why imported steel is so much cheaper

Where are you getting your information from?

 

[Stevicus]

Where are you getting your information from?

From this very thread. Several people keep saying that imported steel is cheaper than steel produced domestically.

 

[fantome profane]

From this very thread. Several people keep saying that imported steel is cheaper than steel produced domestically.

You need a better source of information than anonymous posters on the internet.

 

[ecco]

It's not about jobs. It's about national security and survival. If Americans don't know how to make stuff anymore (which is implied by the desperate calls for free trade), then we are in serious, serious trouble.

Let's compare North and South Korea. NK imports little (due to sanctions rather than tariffs).

Which Country has the better economy and whose citizens have a better quality of life?

 

[Stevicus]

You need a better source of information than anonymous posters on the internet.

Why are you telling me and not those who are originating the claim here in this thread?

 

[ecco]

No, but if you're only looking at the surface, then you're oversimplifying the issue.

I'm oversimplifying ? Really?

The real question is why imported steel is so much cheaper, especially if it has to be shipped further. Is it because foreign manufacturers are more efficient? Are they more intelligent than their US counterparts? Are the American steel mill owners nothing more than incompetent boobs who just can't compete? Maybe they're just too greedy and asking for too much money? Could that be it?

Oh, I know what you'll say. You'll blame US workers for demanding too much money. You'll blame the workers and the common people.

I don't blame US workers. I don't know why you threw that in there.

But it's the owners who charge too much to feed their own greed. They live in mansions while the common workers live in much more modest housing.

The solution is very easy. Force the business owners to pay higher wages, but lower their prices. Government can do that very easily with a stroke of a pen. That way, we can still have tariffs and the American consumers won't have to pay one cent more.

Don't you think that's a great solution?

No, I don't. Because it's nonsensical.

Walmart employees 1,500,000 people in the US. 2.3 million world wide.
The CEO of Walmart made $22.4 million.

The CEO of Walmart made $15 dollars annually for each American employee. $10 per worldwide employee.



Walmart made an annual profit if $6,300 per employee.

Would your "great solution" be to give each worker a $6,300 annual increase and have no profits?
Lower profits = fewer investors = stagnation.

Would your "great solution" be to give each worker a $5,000 annual increase and lose money?

​

 

[Revoltingest]

Why are you telling me and not those who are originating the claim here in this thread?

He's not saying you (or they) are wrong.

 

[ecco]

Now you're moving the goalposts. Before you said Americans don't pick crops. Are you now willing to retract that earlier statement?

Not until you give some details of the types of crop picking that your family members do. Hell, I picked tomatoes on my grandparent's farm. That's not really picking crops in the general sense of the term, is it?

It's also the greed of the owners.

By owners taking less money. The problem is not as complex as you're stating, and your attempt at belittling me or lecturing me will fall on deaf ears. It's better to be a part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Greed is destroying this country from within. Can't you see that?

See my post #73. Yes, the issue is complex.

I do know that the idea of the small family farm is becoming a thing of the past. Most farming is corporate nowadays. Rich, corporate executives screwing the lower class workers and consumers. This is what you're defending?

It has nothing to do with what I may or may not be defending. It has everything to do with the realities of life in the 21st Century.

Do you really think things were better when 50% of people in this Country were farmers and ranchers. Tell that to those whose farms were wiped out by nature - the Dust Bowl.

 

[Underhill]

Tariffs might be seen more as a stopgap measure.

This has been an issue ever since the founding of America, when Jefferson and Hamilton had a rift over the issue. Jefferson felt that the US economy should be based on a few "natural" commodities from the land, while importing manufactured goods from Europe (without tariffs), so that America might be spared the filth and unrest accompanied by industrialism. Hamilton argued that America should build up its own industrial base so that we could become more self-sufficient and not dependent upon foreign imports.

The best proof that would demonstrate which approach was better can be found in the results of the Civil War.

The South was an agrarian economy, totally dependent upon a few commodities for its income. Everything else had to be imported, which is why they were against tariffs. In contrast, the North was an industrial powerhouse, and they supported tariffs. New York City alone had more industrial might than all of the Southern states combined. Springfield, Massachusetts produced more guns than all of the South combined.

In my view, the only things we should be importing are those things that can not be mined nor grown in the United States. The only manufactured goods we should be importing are those we don't have the technology to produce ourselves, but if we are truly so backward as that, then we are in a vulnerable and unenviable position. This would indicate that America has much greater problems than simple tariffs.

It's not about jobs. It's about national security and survival. If Americans don't know how to make stuff anymore (which is implied by the desperate calls for free trade), then we are in serious, serious trouble.

Sure, except we don't really have that big a shortage of manufacturing. We still make more weapons than anyone, we still make more cars than anyone and we still have a host of industries that manufacture domestically.

And I am not against all tariffs. I am against this kind of massive sweeping tariff that puts us in a bad spot. We need targeted tariffs. For example, for a time we were leaders in solar technology and manufacturing. We could have implemented tariffs then, when it was a new and obviously growing field. This would protect an important capability for the future without endangering existing deals.

Instead we've watched the ball slide by home plate without even taking a swing.

 

[Stevicus]

No, I don't. Because it's nonsensical.

Opinion noted.

 

[Stevicus]

He's not saying you (or they) are wrong.

I was only responding to the point made regarding the claim that it's cheaper to import steel from China as opposed to producing domestically. I did not make the claim, however I was merely going along with it for the sake of argument.

It's easier than getting bogged down in minutia.

Usually, whenever someone asks for a source of information, it's their way of saying "you're wrong" or "I don't believe you."

 

[Stevicus]

Sure, except we don't really have that big a shortage of manufacturing. We still make more weapons than anyone, we still make more cars than anyone and we still have a host of industries that manufacture domestically.

Well, that's good.

But a picture is worth a thousand words:

It's clear that back in the 50s and 60s, the US economy was more solid. It was a period of enormous economic growth and great improvement over what previous generations had. Now we're going in reverse, and it's due to our own bad choices.

And I am not against all tariffs. I am against this kind of massive sweeping tariff that puts us in a bad spot. We need targeted tariffs. For example, for a time we were leaders in solar technology and manufacturing. We could have implemented tariffs then, when it was a new and obviously growing field. This would protect an important capability for the future without endangering existing deals.

Instead we've watched the ball slide by home plate without even taking a swing.

I don't see how it would put us in a bad spot, or at least not any worse than we already are.

 

[Revoltingest]

I was only responding to the point made regarding the claim that it's cheaper to import steel from China as opposed to producing domestically. I did not make the claim, however I was merely going along with it for the sake of argument.

It's easier than getting bogged down in minutia.

Usually, whenever someone asks for a source of information, it's their way of saying "you're wrong" or "I don't believe you."

I suspect that it's more complicated than cheaper here or there.
There are many kinds of steel.
One of my trailers uses steel from multiple countries, eg, Germany.