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Trump loses the ability to block subpoena

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Riders, May 20, 2019.

  1. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Deny all you want to, but I doesn't change the facts.

    Just like you was wrong about rule 6(e) regarding grand jury info, you are wrong about this as well.

    Deal with it.
     
    #61 Enoch07, May 22, 2019
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  2. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    I doubt it.

    Actually they do, it's why we paid $40 million for an investigation. If they don't agree with it, then the House Democrats can refund $40 million out of their personal bank accounts then. If not then they can just s.t.f.u!
     
  3. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    I'm not talking about nobody cares as it regards to the law. You are taking my comment out of context.

    The context of the answer was about his re-election. Even If he did cheat on his taxes, it will not effect his re-election. Because nobody will hold it against him personally. It's just taxes, it's not like he ran over our dog, smacked our momma, then slept with our wives and tried to cover it up!
     
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Reposting inaccuracies doesn't magically make them accurate.
     
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  5. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Well-Known Member

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    So, what I said. Thanks.
     
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  6. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Cheating on your taxes is against law, people dont wnat tax cheaters for President, it makes him dirty.

    But lets just see whos right and whos wrong here, so who knows the right anser, how many of President in the past have broken the law by cheating on their taxes have become President???????????
     
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  7. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Just because you are wrong about the law doesn't make the law inaccurate. It just means you are.

    Which is why Congress still doesn't have what they want.;)
     
  8. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Nope, here's your pose in its entirety.

    You think nobody cares cause it's rich people who cheat. Rich has nothing to do with it. Nobody cares because its taxes. It's not like its violent crime. Didn't hear you wanting to string up Willie Nelson when he didn't pay his taxes. So stop pretending like it's the horrible travesty when in fact you don't care that deeply about the issue. Its faux outrage because you hate Trump, and that's all it is.
     
  9. fantome profane

    fantome profane Have you read the Mueller Report?
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    In other words it is your money! It is money that could go towards roads and bridges. It could go towards clean water. It could go towards police and fire departments. Heck, it could even go towards that stupid wall that is never going to be built.

    When the rich cheat on their taxes they cheat big. The average tax payer cannot even come close to this level of cheating. When they cheat your government out of millions, they are cheating you. You pay more, and get less.

    Maybe you don’t care. You should.
     
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  10. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    You're misrepresenting me. It's not that I don't care. Its that it's not as great of a travesty you pretend it is. I guarantee you don't loathe your neighbor for cheating on his taxes as much as you do Trump. That's because it's faux outrage. You hate Trump, and just use any excuse you can to vent it.
     
  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    OK, here the reality on Congress getting confidential from a grand jury, which you falsely say they can't:
    Yes. Committees of the House and Senate possess the power to issues subpoenas for documents held by the executive branch or other subjects in investigations. Under the U.S. Constitution, Congress is a co-equal branch of the federal government alongside the executive branch and judiciary...

    Under U.S. law, grand jury testimony generally must be kept secret. But if a grand jury matter involves “grave hostile acts of a foreign power” or other intelligence information, the information can be shared with appropriate government officials. The law also lets a judge release grand jury information when strong public interest is at stake.
    -- Explainer: Can Democratic subpoenas force the release of Mueller's Trump-Russia report? - Reuters

    So, you are clearly wrong on this count. Next post will deal with Mueller's report dealing with "obstruction" that you have also been false on:
    Volume II of the report addresses obstruction of justice. The investigation intentionally took an approach that could not result in a judgment that Trump committed a crime. The Mueller team refrained from charging Trump because investigators abided by an Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) opinion that a sitting president cannot stand trial, and they feared that charges would affect Trump's governing and possibly preempt his impeachment...

    As such, the investigation "does not conclude that the President committed a crime"; however, "it also does not exonerate him", as investigators were not confident that Trump was innocent after examining his intent and actions. The report describes ten episodes where Trump could potentially have obstructed justice while president and one before he was elected, noting he privately tried to "control the investigation" in multiple ways, but mostly failed to influence it because his subordinates or associates refused to carry out his instructions. The report further states that Congress can decide whether Trump obstructed justice, as Congress has the authority to take action against a president in reference to potential impeachment proceedings...
    -- Mueller Report - Wikipedia

    Simply put, you don't know what you're talking about on these matters.
     
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  12. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Well-Known Member

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    Ah, okay, so nobody cares about crimes being committed when it comes to not paying taxes.
    Willie Nelson was forced to sell off his things to pay his back taxes. Wesley Snipes went to prison for tax evasion. What do you think would happen to you if you committed say, tax fraud?
    It's a crime. Just because it's not a rape or murder doesn't make it any less of a crime. Do you think, as Trump appears to think, that he is above the law?
     
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  13. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Incorrect

    156. Disclosure of matters occurring before the grand jury to Department of Justice attorneys and Assistant United States Attorneys

    From the article: Rule 6(e)(3)(A)(i) does not authorize disclosure to attorneys for other Federal government agencies. SeeUnited States v. Bates, 627 F.2d 349, 351 (D.C.Cir. 1980). Nor is disclosure permitted under this section to attorneys for States or local governments. In re Holovachka, 317 F.2d 834 (7th Cir. 1963); Corona Construction Co. v. Ampress Brick Co., Inc., 376 F. Supp. 598 (N.D.Ill. 1974)

    You are wrong. You are letting your bias override your objectivity.

    This rule is why Congress didn't get the redacted info. Now as of yesterday Barr has been authorized to reveal some of those redactions, but at the time of Barrs testimony in front of the judiciary committee he did not have that authorization. Which means Congress asked Barr to commit obstruction of justice by revealing grand jury info during his testimony.

    From the article above: The unauthorized disclosure of grand jury information can also be punished under other criminal statutes as well as pursuant to a district court's contempt powers. If an individual discloses grand jury material with the intent to obstruct an ongoing investigation, he or she may be prosecuted for obstruction of justice under 18 U.S.C. § 1503. SeeUnited States v. Jeter, 775 F.2d 670, 675-679 (6th Cir. 1985), cert. denied, 475 U.S. 1142 (1986); United States v. Howard, 569 F.2d 1331, 1334-1335 (5th Cir.), cert. denied, 439 U.S. 834 (1978). In addition, an individual who improperly disseminates grand jury materials may be prosecuted for the theft of government property under 18 U.S.C. § 641. See United States v. Jeter, 775 F.2d at 679-682; United States v. Friedman, 445 F.2d 1076 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 404 U.S. 958 (1971); see also United States v. Girard, 601 F.2d 69, 71-72 (2d Cir.), cert. denied, 444 U.S. 871 (1979) (theft of information from DEA computers); United States v. DiGilio, 538 F.2d 972, 976-981 (3d Cir. 1976), cert. denied, 429 U.S. 1038 (1977) (theft of grand jury information from FBI files). Compare United States v. Collins, 56 F.3d 1416, 1419-1420 (D.C. Cir. 1995), cert. denied, 116 S. Ct. 737 (1996) (§ 641 applies to intangible property) with United States v. Tobias, 836 F.2d 449, 450-452 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 485 U.S. 991 (1988) (§ 641 does not apply to intangible property).


    That is your opinion, which is wrong. But nothing new.

    Then he is innocent.

    You can't be kinda innocent/guilty.

    These are mutually exclusive. Either he committed a crime or he didn't.

    Mueller report clears him of all crimes related to conspiracy and obstruction.

    Incorrect it was Barrs decision, passed down from Mueller who declined to make the decision. Barr concluded the President did not commit obstruction, and he gave his reasoning for his decision during his testimony.
     
  14. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    The laws are established for that.

    Nope, and to say that I did say that is misrepresenting my claim.
     
  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I do not think that Congress counts as a "govermental agency". Historically the executive branch has not won when they denied subpoenas. History is not on your side, all that the Trumpettes can hope for is a delay. You should take a look at the history of the Nixon investigation. At least he was not a cry baby and kept doing his job.
     
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Again, you moved the goalposts, so there's no need for me to go any further with this after this brief explanation.

    I made it clear that the issue of "obstruction" need not involve any criminal behavior, plus on the issue of grand jury information, you cut & paste what normally happens but then blow off the simple fact the grand jury evidence can be used under certain conditions as I quoted from Reuters.
     
  17. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    You'd be wrong.
     
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    And you are a lawyer? Your unsupported claim that someone is wrong appears to be very strong evidence that they are right.
     
  19. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    No goal post moved at all. This is the same argument I've been using. Which is the law.

    I never denied that. And if you are implying that I have you are misrepresenting my argument.

    Trump did not commit obstruction. Here is Barr explaining why.


    Again you misrepresent me with false allegations. Here I cited the law, and showed how it can be used under certain conditions. Those conditions being it has to be authorized or else it's a felony.

    Continue to misrepresent me if you wish. But it only makes you look bad.
     
  20. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    I was countering your unsupported claim/opinion of :
    with one of my own. ;)

    Enjoy
     
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