True Islam?

[Rival]

So I hear a lot of Western Muslims claiming that this or that is not 'true Islam'. Alright, whatever you want to believe. But what, then, is this 'true Islam' I keep hearing about? This shiny Islam that stresses women's rights, non-violence, tolerance and peace? As a European, I see only this:

"We are guests in your country, you must treat us with respect and let us build Masjids and take over Marseilles!"

But,

"No, sorry, this is an Islamic country, you can't build Churches here."

*

"What? Ban the burka? I thought you were supposed to be tolerant and liberal and free!"

But,

"Sorry, no bikinis in our Islamic country, follow our dress codes or else."

*

"We want halal food, or else you're disrespecting our religion."

But,

"No wine in our Islamic countries, no sausage rolls."

Seriously, what gives? Pick one. Europe is Christian and if we can't build Churches in Islamic countries, we should have the right to deny Mosques in Christian Europe.

So which is this 'true' Islam Westernised, Christianised Muslims keep telling me about and why doesn't it seem to exist in Islamic countries?

 

[Laika]

This shiny Islam that stresses women's rights, non-violence, tolerance and peace?

Shiny Islam: The New Burka and Bikini Fashion Range.

For when you need to change your outfit and not your beliefs.

 

[Rival]

Shiny Islam: The New Burka and Bikini Fashion Range.

For when you need to change your outfit and not your beliefs.

Put your awrah away right now!

 

[FearGod]

So I hear a lot of Western Muslims claiming that this or that is not 'true Islam'. Alright, whatever you want to believe. But what, then, is this 'true Islam' I keep hearing about? This shiny Islam that stresses women's rights, non-violence, tolerance and peace? As a European, I see only this:

"We are guests in your country, you must treat us with respect and let us build Masjids and take over Marseilles!"

But,

"No, sorry, this is an Islamic country, you can't build Churches here."

*

"What? Ban the burka? I thought you were supposed to be tolerant and liberal and free!"

But,

"Sorry, no bikinis in our Islamic country, follow our dress codes or else."

*

"We want halal food, or else you're disrespecting our religion."

But,

"No wine in our Islamic countries, no sausage rolls."

Seriously, what gives? Pick one. Europe is Christian and if we can't build Churches in Islamic countries, we should have the right to deny Mosques in Christian Europe.

So which is this 'true' Islam Westernised, Christianised Muslims keep telling me about and why doesn't it seem to exist in Islamic countries?

2 wrongs don't make a right.

 

[sun rise]

"We want halal food, or else you're disrespecting our religion."

So you're against Jews having kosher food, Jains/Hindus having vegetarian food and Seventh-Day Adventists insisting on no pork due to religious reasons.

 

[Rival]

So you're against Jews having kosher food, Jains/Hindus having vegetarian food and Seventh-Day Adventists insisting on no pork due to religious reasons.

No, I'm against hypocrisy. If we Europeans allow halal food in Europe, Saudi Arabia should serve hamburgers.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

So I hear a lot of Western Muslims claiming that this or that is not 'true Islam'. Alright, whatever you want to believe. But what, then, is this 'true Islam' I keep hearing about? This shiny Islam that stresses women's rights, non-violence, tolerance and peace? As a European, I see only this:

"We are guests in your country, you must treat us with respect and let us build Masjids and take over Marseilles!"

But,

"No, sorry, this is an Islamic country, you can't build Churches here."

*

"What? Ban the burka? I thought you were supposed to be tolerant and liberal and free!"

But,

"Sorry, no bikinis in our Islamic country, follow our dress codes or else."

*

"We want halal food, or else you're disrespecting our religion."

But,

"No wine in our Islamic countries, no sausage rolls."

Seriously, what gives? Pick one. Europe is Christian and if we can't build Churches in Islamic countries, we should have the right to deny Mosques in Christian Europe.

So which is this 'true' Islam Westernised, Christianised Muslims keep telling me about and why doesn't it seem to exist in Islamic countries?

Well to be fair, the idea that Europe is more liberal, accepting and tolerant than the Muslim world is one that us Europeans are keen to put out there. For us to turn around and say to Muslims "yeah, we don't want to give you the same vaunted freedoms & liberties we give to others on the grounds that Muslim countries don't give them to others" is a tad hypocritical. And if we're using Islamic social, religious and legal mores in Muslim countries as a justification for being ******** ourselves then we're not really doing anyone any favours.

 

[Rival]

liberal, accepting and tolerant

You know how I feel about these words

 

[Rival]

Well to be fair, the idea that Europe is more liberal, accepting and tolerant than the Muslim world is one that us Europeans are keen to put out there. For us to turn around and say to Muslims "yeah, we don't want to give you the same vaunted freedoms & liberties we give to others on the grounds that Muslim countries don't give them to others" is a tad hypocritical. And if we're using Islamic social, religious and legal mores in Muslim countries as a justification for being ******** ourselves then we're not really doing anyone any favours.

But on a more serious note: yes; rights, values, freedoms and so on are supposed to be earned. Not just given out to everyone - especially not a group that at the minute seems hellbent on destroying Europe and forcing their beliefs down our throats.

Excuse me, I'm a tad angry right now.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

But on a more serious note: yes, rights, values, freedoms and so on are supposed to be earned. Not just given out to everyone, especially not a group that at the minute seems hellbent on destroying Europe and forcing their beliefs down our throats.

Excuse me, I'm a tad angry right now.

How are they supposed to be earned? Do native Europeans need to earn them too or only those migrating here? If the latter, does a family only need to earn them if they're the ones migrating or will their children to the Xth generation need to earn them too? What about non-Muslim migrants? What about the likes of Yazidis or Christians? Will this "earning rights" be based on a person's religious identity?

The thing about human rights is they do apply to everyone who is human. As much as it may turn my stomach, that includes jerks like Breivik, that includes Abu Hamza and it includes Muslim migrants who've grown up in conservative Muslim countries all their lives and are now in an environment that challenges everything they believe. If we start denying rights for one person or group then that sets a very dangerous precedent for the rest of us.

 

[Rival]

How are they supposed to be earned? Do native Europeans need to earn them too or only those migrating here? If the latter, does a family only need to earn them if they're the ones migrating or will their children to the Xth generation need to earn them too? What about non-Muslim migrants? What about the likes of Yazidis or Christians? Will this "earning rights" be based on a person's religious identity?

The thing about human rights is they do apply to everyone who is human. As much as it may turn my stomach, that includes jerks like Breivik, that includes Abu Hamza and it includes Muslim migrants who've grown up in conservative Muslim countries all their lives and are now in an environment that challenges everything they believe. If we start denying rights for one person or group then that sets a very dangerous precedent for the rest of us.

Yes, I do think even native Europeans should have to earn the right to vote, to be elected and so on. The fate of the country shouldn't be put into the hands of those who vote just because they can.

Those migrating, of course. This is why we have tests and such before people are allowed to become citizens of other countries. If one is part of a religion which goes directly against European secular values (as I'm sure we can both agree Islam does), I don't think such a person has the right to demand that we kowtow to his religion if it goes against our laws. A Christian preacher was stopped by the police for preaching against homosexuals, remember that? So this applies to all faiths. If doctrines of your faith go against the law, then the law trumps your faith. Deal with it.

If one moves country and holds such conservative beliefs, I wonder why he didn't migrate to some more familiar environment. Immigrants don't have the right to demand certain foods, places of worship etc. until they can prove they will not go against our laws, common decency etc. Islam transgresses Western Law and preaches hatred in its Mosques.

In other words, ADS, what I'm trying to say is that Islam and Western Values are not compatible, and Islamic law must not be allowed to trump European law. That right does not exist.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

This hypocrisy is there in all religions, it's just Islam excels is it by a significant lead.
In India, democracy comes to the Islamic mind when they want beef ban to go but wants homosexuality criminalized (granted some fundamentalist Hindu, Sikh and Christians also are in the mix, though none want beef ban to go or in case of Christians, they do not care)
Muslims are the leading opponent against the Uniform Civil Code in India because apparently treating people in legal courts instead of religious courts is an attack on their religion.
The condition of Muslim women are often tragic. A Muslim man can simply say "taalaaq" thrice n the wife is divorced without needing to pay alimony, since their affairs are controlled by sharia courts.
However most of the Muslims in India who want beef legalized here and oppose UCC, has strong love for Saudi laws against public display of Hindu faiths, alcohol and pork ban.
Generally, a VERY TAD few young Muslims are trying to bring change and for global secularism and even punishing the Saudi governments, still a vast majority here and everywhere else is simply double faced.
Which ever political party appeases them, they vote for them even though if the same party is for LGBT rights and equal rights for women.
We have many Hindus in India that strongly support beef ban but are against the ban on swastika symbols in Europe.
There are Christians who hate communal hatred coming from VHP and other extremist Hindu groups but doesn't stop them from preaching how non Christians burn in hell.
I'll gladly admit the faults of my religion but I don't need to hide them like a coward to get my way out.
There's nothing called TRUE Hindus or FALSE Hindus, it's just Hindus and how they interpret their texts. The psychopathic radical ones that killed Gandhi is also a Hindu and Gandhi was also a Hindu, there's no true or false here.
I find it funny when I hear that they're not true Muslims or true Christians. Yes, in the case of Buddhists there could be false Buddhists as followers of this faith those who remotely harm other living beings, but in the case of Islam it doesn't make sense.
The Quran screams of killing Hindus and going for war against non Muslims, labeling Allah as the only truth.
Then how is an extremist beheading a Hindu in Bangladesh a false Muslim?

 

[Godobeyer]

So I hear a lot of Western Muslims claiming that this or that is not 'true Islam'. Alright, whatever you want to believe. But what, then, is this 'true Islam' I keep hearing about? This shiny Islam that stresses women's rights, non-violence, tolerance and peace? As a European, I see only this:

"We are guests in your country, you must treat us with respect and let us build Masjids and take over Marseilles!"

But,

"No, sorry, this is an Islamic country, you can't build Churches here."

*

"What? Ban the burka? I thought you were supposed to be tolerant and liberal and free!"

But,

"Sorry, no bikinis in our Islamic country, follow our dress codes or else."

*

"We want halal food, or else you're disrespecting our religion."

But,

"No wine in our Islamic countries, no sausage rolls."

Seriously, what gives? Pick one. Europe is Christian and if we can't build Churches in Islamic countries, we should have the right to deny Mosques in Christian Europe.

So which is this 'true' Islam Westernised, Christianised Muslims keep telling me about and why doesn't it seem to exist in Islamic countries?

I think West leaving Christianity , and become more secular every year.

Churchs exist in most of Muslims countries.

I think most of Muslims countries are more religious than secular, so that's why bikini is not acceptable

 

[Rival]

I think West leaving Christianity , and become more secular every year.

A blessing

 

[sun rise]

No, I'm against hypocrisy. If we Europeans allow halal food in Europe, Saudi Arabia should serve hamburgers.

They do: https://burgerking.hellofood.sa/en/

I agree that all countries should get rid of religious rule and accept people of all religions. But sadly for now some countries are better than others. And I don't attribute this to hypocrisy but egoism - I want what I want and my wants are more important than yours.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Yes, I do think even native Europeans should have to earn the right to vote, to be elected and so on.

How do you propose we earn it? Who gets to decide when we've done enough to earn the right to decide who governs us?

The fate of the country shouldn't be put into the hands of those who vote just because they can.

Whose hands should the fate of a country be put in if not its people?

Those migrating, of course. This is why we have tests and such before people are allowed to become citizens of other countries. If one is part of a religion which goes directly against European secular values (as I'm sure we can both agree Islam does),

Yep.

I don't think such a person has the right to demand that we kowtow to his religion if it goes against our laws. A Christian preacher was stopped by the police for preaching against homosexuals, remember that? So this applies to all faiths. If doctrines of your faith go against the law, then the law trumps your faith. Deal with it.

Regarding the first sentence here: Christians do this all the time. We don't throw them out of Europe for it. As for the emboldened sentence; that's because he was doing it in public. Same goes for that monk who went door-to-door with homophobic leaflets. People are allowed to believe and think as they wish - the law is there to punish people whose actions infringe the rights of others.

If one moves country and holds such conservative beliefs, I wonder why he didn't migrate to some more familiar environment. Immigrants don't have the right to demand certain foods, places of worship etc. until they can prove they will not go against our laws, common decency etc.

A good question. I think the trend is the first generation migrants are happy to assimilate in a lot of cases; but their children & grandchildren get brought up in an environment mired by their (grand)parents more conservative version of Islam from the 'old country' and tend to not appreciate how bad things are there in terms of repression.

Islam transgresses Western Law and preaches hatred in its Mosques.

I've noticed there's a problem with this too. Channel 4 did a Dispatches programme a decade or so back where their reporter went undercover in to the biggest London mosque and recorded a guy standing up and basically denouncing the West as the nest of vipers and the Jews as the worst of all animals.

In other words, ADS, what I'm trying to say is that Islam and Western Values are not compatible, and Islamic law must not be allowed to trump European law. That right does not exist.

I've noticed a sizeable portion of Muslims don't really seem to see a conflict between Islam & Western values. The problem arises when we see the emergence of more conservative sects or groups like Salafis or Wahabis; or groups that are set up specifically to target minorities. Those sorts of dogmas shouldn't be allowed into the West, and people who follow those doctrines should be sent out of Europe. I think the West is selling its soul for Saudi oil.

There's even an example of a Saudi woman up here who was sponsored by Saudi Arabia to study in Scotland who had all the money she and her family needed to live frozen by the Saudi Government because her husband is agnostic and refused to help the Saudis turn a church into a Wahabi mosque. Her name is Haifa Amg and here's a brief summary of her story:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=205111959853272

 

[Rival]

Whose hands should the fate of a country be put in if not its people?

A strong charismatic leader of course

 

[Pastek]

So I hear a lot of Western Muslims claiming that this or that is not 'true Islam'. Alright, whatever you want to believe. But what, then, is this 'true Islam' I keep hearing about? This shiny Islam that stresses women's rights, non-violence, tolerance and peace? As a European, I see only this:
"We are guests in your country, you must treat us with respect and let us build Masjids and take over Marseilles!"
But,
"No, sorry, this is an Islamic country, you can't build Churches here."

Actually there's some new churches in islamic countries.
Of course you can understand that there's not a big christian immigration in our countries too, as in general people tend to move for economical reasons most of time. So that also can explain why.

Here in UAE in 2015

http://www.christiantoday.com/artic....overflows.with.christian.believers/56767.htm

"What? Ban the burka? I thought you were supposed to be tolerant and liberal and free!"

But,
"Sorry, no bikinis in our Islamic country, follow our dress codes or else."

Bikinis are allowed in many muslim touristic countries.
I guess you have in mind some countries such as Iran or Afghanistan so what you say is kind of a cliché. (but who even go there to visit ???? just few for work eventually)
I think it's pretty astonishing for an european (i think that what you said you are) to say this, when we know that among the most visited countries (european destinations for holidays) there's Turkey, Morroco and Tunisia and they go a lot for the beach there.
Even among the people themselves (of those countries) many are in bikinis at the beach. Anyway even if in some country they don't, they leave the foreigners alone.

"We want halal food, or else you're disrespecting our religion."

But,
"No wine in our Islamic countries, no sausage rolls."

Pork and alcohol are not banned everywhere and not for everyone.
A muslim is not supposed to sell this but a non-muslim have the right to sell it, big difference.

But in the practice, you can find it in touristic areas and even sell by muslims.
Some even have their own alcohol like in maghreb called "Sidi Brahim" (you can even find it in europe now) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidi_Brahim_(wine)
But in Turkey and other places they also produce some.

Here an article from 2011 about pork breeding in Morocco (for tourists) : http://oumma.com/Maroc-le-tourisme-fait-les-beaux
(watch the video even if you don't understand the language you'll get it)

Seriously, what gives? Pick one. Europe is Christian and if we can't build Churches in Islamic countries, we should have the right to deny Mosques in Christian Europe.

In many muslim countries we have already old churches, contrary to non-muslim countries where people had to build mosques later.
So when christians will come in important number to live in muslim countries then this question can be legitime.
And if they are denied this right, blame muslims not the religion of Islam as Islam allows this.

 

[AnnaCzereda]

But on a more serious note: yes; rights, values, freedoms and so on are supposed to be earned. Not just given out to everyone - especially not a group that at the minute seems hellbent on destroying Europe

Europe is destroying itself. Every country should have a reasonable immigration policy. The same goes for the asylum system. The Western EU countries for a long time have not only accepted the Muslim immigrants with open arms but invited them just like they are now doing with all those refugees. If you don't set limits for immigration, then you're asking for troubles. We can't save the whole world. Now there are consequences of this lame system. The concern for human rights, that is driven in the EU to the pathological extent, allows privileges to the mass murderers, like Breivik (because he's a human), and lets the suspect terrorists escape punishment (because a terrorist is a human too). For a long time political correctness and the cult of multi-culturalism made the politicians, journalists and various activists sweep the problems caused by immigrants under the carpet.

Coming back to your original post, people praying in mosques harm no one, women wearing burkas harm no one, people eating halal meat harm no one. There is a difference between real problems and imaginary ones. The problem is in numbers. There are simply too many Muslim immigrants in the EU countries, hence the clash of cultures, it's also more difficult to control them. There are some Muslims here in Poland, about 20 000. There are not many of them so they don't cause troubles. They have their mosques, they can also wear burkas. Each country should accept only as many immigrants as it can cope with. The immigrants should be required to obey the law. Everyone who disobeys the law of the host country should be punished, not like it used to be in the Muslim ghettos in France or Germany. Disrespecting the immigrants and their religion is not a good idea as it would only lead to more conflicts and radicalization.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

We can't save the whole world. Now there are consequences of this lame system. The concern for human rights, that is driven in the EU to the pathological extent, allows privileges to the mass murderers, like Breivik (because he's a human), and lets the suspect terrorists escape punishment (because a terrorist is a human too).

First off, Breivik was being subjected to cruel treatment by his jailors. That same right to not suffer cruel or degrading treatment protects us all. Secondly, what terrorists are you talking about? The ones that perpetrated the last terrorist attacks were all killed on sight were they not?