Trudeau Announces Appointment of Canada's First Representative to Combat Islamophobia

[Twilight Hue]

Sure, there's a few bad apples in every group. Most Muslims don't support extremism or violence.

It's hard to defend that when you see entire Islamic governments, in addition to the radical groups. demonstrate to the world extremely aggregious human rights violations that go far beyond the pale of what a civilized people ought to be.

 

[icehorse]

Wow, I seem to be getting them all tonight. Well ok.

You know there are almost 2 billion Muslims in the world. They are all people, they are all individuals. 2 billion of them.

If a Muslim commits a crime or harms someone in some way they should be held accountable. If a Muslim just lives their life doing no one no harm they should not be discriminated against.

Not a complicated concept.

Not as easy as that I'm afraid

Yes, 2 billion, I know. And what makes them all Muslims, and what has sustained the religion for centuries is the Quran. And - unlike Christians and the Bible - Muslims refuse to compromise at all when it comes to the Quran. Won't budge an inch.

Any neutral, parsimonious reading of the Quran leads to some very uncomfortable conclusions. It is a masterwork of "us vs. them" propaganda, drilling into the readers' brains a strong distrust of non-Muslims. And it doesn't matter how Islamic holy men try to spin it, its propagandistic nature pounds this message into its readers.

As long is this book remains unreformed, it will be a source of bad feelings between Muslims and non-Muslims. It is not as simple as "let them live in peace" as long as Muslims insist that their book is perfect.

 

[icehorse]

No. You should do some research:

I will refer you to my post #42.

What you might not have considered is the conflict between a person's unconscious brain and their conscious mind. Propaganda works on the brain, and no amount of conscious effort can override it. So a Muslim might consciously think they have no issues with non-Muslims, but their unconscious brain will disagree.

And even if this was not the case - which it is - your poll would still indicate that 600 million Muslims believe there is only one way to interpret the religion.

 

[fantome profane]

Not as easy as that I'm afraid

Yes, 2 billion, I know. And what makes them all Muslims, and what has sustained the religion for centuries is the Quran. And - unlike Christians and the Bible - Muslims refuse to compromise at all when it comes to the Quran. Won't budge an inch.

Any neutral, parsimonious reading of the Quran leads to some very uncomfortable conclusions. It is a masterwork of "us vs. them" propaganda, drilling into the readers' brains a strong distrust of non-Muslims. And it doesn't matter how Islamic holy men try to spin it, its propagandistic nature pounds this message into its readers.

As long is this book remains unreformed, it will be a source of bad feelings between Muslims and non-Muslims. It is not as simple as "let them live in peace" as long as Muslims insist that their book is perfect.

The thing is you are not totally wrong. There is a problem. Muslims who would advocate or support violence are in the minority, and yet at the same time that minority is too large.

I am trying to suggest a more complex nuanced understanding.

Imagine meeting a random Muslim, maybe where you work, maybe they move in next door to you, and the only thing you know about about them is that they are Muslim. You need to understand that statistical the odds are very high that that person is peaceful, opposed to terrorism, opposed to religious violence, and supports freedom of religion. If you don’t believe that is true look at the polls again.

And yet at the same time I agree with you that there is a problem. Too many Muslims do support violence in the name of religion.

It might seem like those two ideas contradict, but they actually don’t.

It is not as simple as "let them live in peace" as long as Muslims insist that their book is perfect.

Then what exactly do you suggest?

 

[icehorse]

Imagine meeting a random Muslim, maybe where you work, maybe they move in next door to you, and the only thing you know about about them is that they are Muslim. You need to understand that statistical the odds are very high that that person is peaceful, opposed to terrorism, opposed to religious violence, and supports freedom of religion. If you don’t believe that is true look at the polls again.

First off, to be clear, I'm not making any claims about violence or terrorism.

Now, as far as a person's conscious mind goes, you are correct!

But if you apply cognitive science, neuroscience, motivation science, learning theory, an understanding of the mechanisms of propaganda, and other related domains of knowledge, you must also consider that outwardly peaceful Muslim's unconscious brain.

Throughout the 20th century we saw the terrible power of divisive propaganda. More recently we've seen trump use the techniques of propaganda very effectively and destructively to create and spread "the big lie".

I think that if you look at the Quran from the perspective of propaganda, you'll be hard-pressed to deny its true nature.

Then what exactly do you suggest?

For centuries, Christians have been forced to backpedal when it comes to the perfection of the Bible. It is now well accepted that it cannot be taken literally, and that certain passages are simply wrong.

This is what must happen with the Quran. Muslims must reform their claims of perfection concerning their fundamentally divisive book.

 

[LuisDantas]

Activists have been a core part of many governments throughout history. This is nothing remotely new; I'm more interested in what people think about the idea of an "anti-Islamophobia representative" and whether they think that could be effective.

Probably a good thing, given what I know of Canada.

But odds are very high indeed that it will not lead to where many expect it to. Still a good thing, though; hopefully we all will reach a bit more enlightment due to this gesture.

 

[LuisDantas]

I find it horrific that so many people here really seem to think combating Islamophobia is a bad thing.

It really depends on the underlying assumptions, method and resulting measures.

First of all, there is the very significant question of how - if at all - the distinction will be made between Islamophobia and criticism of Islam.

Quite the hurdle, and easily enough to make the whole exercise pointless far more often than not.

 

[LuisDantas]

The thing is you are not totally wrong. There is a problem. Muslims who would advocate or support violence are in the minority, and yet at the same time that minority is too large.

All of that is certainly significant. But the main reason for concern is that Islam, from all indications, simply has neither the means for course correcting its extremists nor the ability to survive as a functional doctrine if it somehow achieves those means.

To put it in other words: the extremists are not an accident of Islam, but a central, supporting feature of its core doctrine. Islam is indeed "submission", and can't really survive any good faith attempts at correcting its flaws.

Yes, there is quite the collection of resources that attempt to explain why that is not quite so. They consistently fail. Many are not even well aware of what they are attempting to do. Ultimately they are all just distractions and obfuscation.

 

[LuisDantas]

I like it when people call things for what it is. At least it might stimulate those who it applies to, to change those unwelcome habits, which harm others

I am not sure if they are dishonest. If they are, then they are not religious at all...just fakers

Speaking as a Brazilian atheist raised in a social environment that fully expects me to this day to fake belief in the divinity of Jesus simply because they do not know how to handle disbelief, I can assure you that the distinction between fakers and so-called religious people can be rather esoteric in this community.

 

[stvdv]

Speaking as a Brazilian atheist raised in a social environment that fully expects me to this day to fake belief in the divinity of Jesus simply because they do not know how to handle disbelief, I can assure you that the distinction between fakers and so-called religious people can be rather esoteric in this community.

Thank you for sharing

I understand totally.

IMO:
Mainstream religions still have so much to learn. Fear mongering (Hell) and judging people who feel and or belief differently (Atheists, homosexuals etc.) has created worldwide many emotional handicapped individuals

From Dharmic POV these religions will create their own downfall. No Anti Christ will cause that

 

[Dawnofhope]

I will refer you to my post #42.

What you might not have considered is the conflict between a person's unconscious brain and their conscious mind. Propaganda works on the brain, and no amount of conscious effort can override it. So a Muslim might consciously think they have no issues with non-Muslims, but their unconscious brain will disagree.

And even if this was not the case - which it is - your poll would still indicate that 600 million Muslims believe there is only one way to interpret the religion.

I don't know about you but I'm a half glass full kind of guy. I get encouraged by seeing the majority who are open to change and are peaceful and tend to avoid giving too much attention to the fundamentalists. I suspect what the fundamentalists want is an us and them mentality. The manner in which we address the very real issues within Islam can led to the same us and them mentality.

We are all influenced by the culture we live in both consciously and unconsciously. Its not a unique phenomenon that applies solely to Islamic communities. It is up to each of us to know ourselves and what brings out the best and worst in us.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It's hard to defend that when you see entire Islamic governments, in addition to the radical groups. demonstrate to the world extremely aggregious human rights violations that go far beyond the pale of what a civilized people ought to be.

If by Islamic governments you refer to Iran, Saudia Arabia and Yemen, I agree there are serious human rights issues. However that is hardly an issue in Canada and a poor excuse for promoting prejudice and persecution of Muslims in Canada.

 

[icehorse]

I don't know about you but I'm a half glass full kind of guy. I get encouraged by seeing the majority who are open to change and are peaceful and tend to avoid giving too much attention to the fundamentalists. I suspect what the fundamentalists want is an us and them mentality. The manner in which we address the very real issues within Islam can led to the same us and them mentality.

Well this is a good start. You might also be interested in this group, the Muslim Reform Movement:

MUSLIM REFORM MOVEMENT

I don't agree with everything they're doing, but again they are making many good steps forward.

To me, the key idea that has to become widespread is that the Quran is NOT a benign book. As it stands, it's actually a very, very dangerous book. It must be modified, and of course I understand that modifying the Quran will be a HUGE shift in Islam, but if we want peace, it has to happen, and the sooner the better.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If by Islamic governments you refer to Iran, Saudia Arabia and Yemen, I agree there are serious human rights issues. However that is hardly an issue in Canada and a poor excuse for promoting prejudice and persecution of Muslims in Canada.

People can't be blamed as being Islamophobic when stuff like this had happened.

Yes it was in Canada.

 

[fantome profane]

People can't be blamed as being Islamophobic …

Yes they can.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes they can.

No. They can't.

 

[fantome profane]

No. They can't.

I just did.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well this is a good start. You might also be interested in this group, the Muslim Reform Movement:

MUSLIM REFORM MOVEMENT

I don't agree with everything they're doing, but again they are making many good steps forward.

It looks the kind of changes progressive Christians and Jews have brought to their faith.

I'm not here to proselytize my religion, the Baha'i Faith, but it is a reform movement that arose out of Islam. You probably won't agree with much of the Baha'i Faith either but it is an example of how Islam can be completely reset with a view more suited to the modern world.

Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia

To me, the key idea that has to become widespread is that the Quran is NOT a benign book. As it stands, it's actually a very, very dangerous book. It must be modified, and of course I understand that modifying the Quran will be a HUGE shift in Islam, but if we want peace, it has to happen, and the sooner the better.

The Quran along the Christian Bible have arguably had more influence on the course of human history in the last 1,500 years that any other books. Nearly 60% of the world's population identify as Christian or Muslim. The problem lies when fanatical religious leaders misinterpret the book and use it to promote their narrow agenda.

Do you think any positive changes have arisen from the Quran?

 

[LuisDantas]

If by Islamic governments you refer to Iran, Saudia Arabia and Yemen, I agree there are serious human rights issues. However that is hardly an issue in Canada and a poor excuse for promoting prejudice and persecution of Muslims in Canada.

Definitely.

Unfortunately, that is hardly relevant.

 

[icehorse]

I'm not here to proselytize my religion, the Baha'i Faith, but it is a reform movement that arose out of Islam. You probably won't agree with much of the Baha'i Faith either but it is an example of how Islam can be completely reset with a view more suited to the modern world.

From what little I know about Baha'i, it does seem truly more peaceful than Islam. But I haven't read any Baha'i scripture, so I could be wrong.

I would ask you to compare the two sets of scripture. First, do you understand what I mean when I say the Quran is obsessed with criticizing non-believers? And second, is Baha'i scripture more accepting of non-Baha'i belief?

Do you think any positive changes have arisen from the Quran?

I'm not much of a historian, @Augustus would probably have a better answer. That said, I do think that morals and ethics have evolved and improved over the last couple of millennia. So "perhaps" when it was written the Quran was a step forward from the morals and ethics of the day, I'm not sure.

But what seems very clear is that the Quran's ideas about morals and ethics have not kept up with the positive growth of these things in the last 1400 years. It's now quite primitive and barbaric.