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Trinity When There Are 24 Elders

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Find it funny, how everyone is always going mad about the Trinity; when according to Revelation 4:4 the 24 Elders all sit on a throne as well, with the Lamb (Yeshua) being one of the Elders in Revelation 5:6.

This to me is the divine council of Elohim mentioned within Psalms 82:1....

These could also be seen as the Avatars of Hinduism with EL/Brahman being the Most High.

Then within that same Psalms 82:6, it says we're all Elohim, which have fallen down here Psalms 82:7. :innocent:
 

Ya Ali

Member
24 Elders are the Guides from Prophet Mohammed's (pbuhap) progeny - the 12 Imams and 12 Mahdis (pbut).


Will of the Prophet Muhammad pbuhap on the night of his death:
The Prophet Muhammad pbuhap said to Ali bin Abi Talib on the night of his death,

“O Father of Al-Hassan, bring me a pen and a paper”, and he dictated his will until he came to a position where he said, “O Ali, there will be twelve Imams after me and after them there will be twelve Mahdis. You, O Ali, are the first of the twelve Imams, Allah has named you in his heavens Ali Al- Mortatha, The Prince of the Believers, the Grand Truthful, the Bright Differentiator between truth and falsehood, the trusted, and the Mahdi (the rightly guided). These names may not to be truly attributed to other than you. O Ali, you are my successor over my family, their living and their deceased, and over my women. Whomever you affirm shall find me tomorrow, and whomever you reject I am innocent of her. I will not see her and she will not see me on the Day of Resurrection. And you are the successor (Khalifa) upon my nation after me. If death approaches you, hand it over to my son Al-Hassan the very beneficial. Then if death approaches him, let him hand it over to my son Al- Hussein, the martyr, the pure, the assassinated. Then if death approaches him, let him hand it over to his son, the master of the worshippers, Ali. Then if death approaches him, let him hand it over to his son, Muhammed Al-Baqir. Then if death approaches him, let him hand it over to his son, Jafar Al-Sadiq. Then if death approaches him, let him hand it over to his son, Musa Al-Kathum. Then if death approaches him, let him hand it over to his son, Ali Al-Retha. Then if death approaches him, let him hand it over to his son Muhammad, the trustworthy, the pious. Then if death approaches him, let him hand it over to his son Ali, the advisor. Then if death approaches him, let him hand it over to his son Al-Hassan, the virtuous. Then if death approaches him, let him hand it over to his son, Muhammad the Entrusted of the Holy Family of Muhammad peace be upon them. So these are the twelve Imams. Then after him, there will be twelve Mahdis. So if death approaches him, let him hand it over to his son, the first of the close ones, he has three names, one like mine and my father’s: Abdullah (servant of Allah), Ahmad and the third name is The Mahdi (rightly guided). He is the first of the believers.”


—Sheikh Al-Toosi, Al-Ghayba p.150

—Sheikh Hor Al-Amili, Ithbat Al-Hodat Vol. 1 p.549
—Sheikh Hor Al-Amili, Al-Iqath Min Al-Haj’a p.393-3
—Sheikh Hassan bin Soulayman Al Hilli, Mokhtasar Al Bassair p.159
—Al-Allama Al-Majlisii, Bihar Al-Anwar Vol. 53 p.147
—Al-Allama Al-Majlisii, Bihar Al-Anwar Vol. 36 p.260
—Sheikh Abd Allah Al-Bahrani, Al’awalim Vol. 3 p.236
—Al-Sayyed Hashim Al-Bahrani, Ghayat Al-Maram Vol. 1 p.370
—Al-Sayyed Hashim Al-Bahrani, Al-Insaf p.222
—Al-Fayth Al-Kachani, Nawadir Al-Akhbar p.294-9
—Sheikh Mirza Annouri, Annajm Al-Thaqib Vol. 2 p.71
—Al-Sayyed Muhammad Muhammad Sadiq Al-Sadir , Tarikh Ma Ba’d Al-Thohoor p.641-11
—Sheikh Al Mayanji, Makatib Arrassoul Vol. 2 p.96
—Sheikh Al-Korani, Mokhtasar Mo’jam Ahadith Al-Imam Al-Mahdi p.301-13
 

Ya Ali

Member
according to Revelation 4:4 the 24 Elders all sit on a throne as well, with the Lamb (Yeshua) being one of the Elders in Revelation 5:6.

The Lion and Lamb in the Vision of John Who is he?

Question: In some of his books, Imam Ahmed al-Hasan interprets the twenty-four elders in the vision of John to be the twelve Imams and the twelve Mahdis℗ mentioned in the Will of the Messenger of God Muhammad℗. And the question is, who is the crucified lamb who was centered among them and whom they addressed?

Answer: Book of Revelation, Chapter 4: [2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. 3 And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder … ] And in Chapter 5: [1 Then I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it, 4 and I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. 5 And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” 6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. 8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, 10and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” 11Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” 13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” 14And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.] In Chapter 14: [1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads … ]* From these passages, it is made clear to you that the one who was at one time symbolized as a lion and at another as a slaughtered lamb is one of the twenty-four elders, as the one sitting on the throne is the one dominating the vision, and it is clear in the vision that he is the best of everyone in rank and superiority. And the twenty-four elders sitting on the thrones are the closest ones in rank to the one sitting on the throne, from among those present in the vision, as it is clear in the vision *Therefore, the slaughtered lamb is not better than the one sitting on the throne, nor is he better than the twenty-four, although we see in the vision that he earned taking the scroll and opening the seals; so how did he earn taking the scroll without them, while they are closer than him and better than him?! Therefore, the slaughtered lamb must be a symbol of one of the twenty-four elders. As for the fact that they submitted to him and spoke to him … etc, they submitted in the sense that they prepared and paved the way, and they are believers in the result, which is applying the supremacy of God on His earth. As for your saying that there is a problem with the fact that one of the twenty-four elders is the same one symbolized by the lamb and the lion, thus how would he address himself; and in reality this is hardly a problem because we are talking about a vision, so there is no problem that one of the twenty-four elders would address a side of his symbolized by the lamb, and another side symbolized by the lion, etc. And if this problem was valid, it would have been valid to negate the vision because it symbolized he who has overcome and earned opening the scroll by the lion and then clarified that the one who took the scroll is the slaughtered lamb. [5 “behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” 6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.] Therefore, the slaughtered lamb and the lion are symbols of who has overcome and earned taking the scroll and opening its seals, and he is one of the twenty-four elders. So in the rank of overcoming, which requires strength, bravery and dedication, he was symbolized by the lion. And in the rank of taking the seals, which requires sacrifice, he was symbolized by a lamb standing as if it had been slaughtered. And both sides belong to the same person.* And there is no inconsistency between them, as the strength of the spirit is a result of the sacrifice, sincerity and patience upon receiving injustice. As for their interpretation of the slaughtered lamb in the vision to be Jesus℗, it is negated by the fact that according to them the one sitting on the throne is God, He is far above that.* And it is not hidden that this interpretation of theirs restricts Almighty God and negates His absolute divinity. And for further details, you can read The Book of Monotheism. † While to us the one sitting on the throne is Muhammad℗, and around him are twenty-four elders also on thrones, and they are the vicegerents of God on His earth, the Imams and the Mahdis mentioned by the Messenger of God℗ in his sacred will.‡

Ahmed al-Hasan a.s., Book - The 13th Disciple

________________________________________________________

*. Concerning the mentioned number of 144,000, whose foreheads are sealed with the name of the lamb and his Father’s name, some of the clerics of the Church have said, “We, before the Church, are the people of God. It includes a very large number. It also includes a great audience from every nation and every tribe and every people and every tongue. They are four words, and this is what is meant by the world with its four corners.” And when the number mentioned in the vision was too little to be concerning their interpretation, they said, “The number is a symbolic number” only and it is not really intended to be taken literally. They said that with all coldness, as the interpretation with no proof is easily provided by them. Refer to Studies in The Holy Book, the Revelation of St. John by Paul Feghali.

*. The fact that the different symbols of the vision indicate the same person from different sides is a matter also believed in by the Christian clerics, and as an example, I mention two texts. One of them is by Father Antonios Fekry, saying, “He is a lion in his strength and his sovereignty is over us and over all the creation, but he is a lamb in how he presented himself for slaughter on the cross and his bearing of our sins.” The Explanation of the Holy Book, the New Testament, the Interpretation of Revelation 5. And the other text is by Dr. William MacDonald, he says, “In the Book of Revelation, our Lord is represented as a lamb and a lion together. So from one side, the fact that he is the lamb of God thus he is the slaughtered lamb that lifts the sins of the world, and as the lion as he is the judge punishing his enemies. At his first coming he was the lamb (the sheep), and at his second coming he will be the lion.” Emmaus Bible College. And Fr. Paul Feghali says, “We waited for a lion so here we are before a lamb, why was Jesus called a lamb? There are three reasons … ” Studies in The Holy Book, the Revelation of St. John. *. Concerning the one sitting on the throne, Dr. William MacDonald says, “God is seen holding a scroll with seven seals that protect it.” Emmaus Bible College. Likewise, Fr. Paul Feghali says, “And there was a throne established in the sky, this entire book is overseen by the word ‘throne’. It is mentioned fourteen times, twice of which are in plural form as we see other thrones (the twelve) surrounding the first throne, the throne of God.” Studies in The Holy Book, the Revelation of St. John.

†. The Book of Monotheism by Imam Ahmed al-Hasan, in which he clarified the true belief in the divinity and he debated the false ideologies which many people believe in today, whether Muslims, Christians or otherwise.

‡. The sacred will that mentioned the twelve Imams and twelve Mahdis has been mentioned earlier in this book.
 

Ya Ali

Member
The Matter of Crucifixion and the Gospel of Judah

Question: As for the matter of crucifixion, to what does Imam Ahmed al-Hasan call the Christians?

Answer: Let the Christians pay attention to the matter that the crucifixion of Jesus is false, and I clarified its falsehood from the Gospel and the words of Jesus therein and his request to God to take the crucifixion and its torture away from him.* So it is either that God answered the prayer of Jesus℗ and lifted him and sent down his lookalike, and this is the truth, or that God did not answer the prayer of Jesus, peace be upon him. And the meaning of this saying of theirs is that God does not care for the prayer of Jesus℗. And they also accuse Jesus℗ of foolishness, weak perception and lack of knowledge, otherwise what does it mean that Jesus would ask God to take the crucifixion away from him if he was capable of having patience over the torment of crucifixion without complaining, while he knew that the matter of crucifixion is important in the march of the divine religion?† Let them also pay attention to the historical document, the Gospel of Judah,* presented by the International Historical Society, and it is one of the ancient manuscripts found in Egypt, dating back to the beginning of the third century A.D, meaning before Islam and before the dispatch of Muhammad℗. This document mentions that Jesus was not crucified; rather, someone else who is his look-alike was crucified. What concerns us is that the issue of the look-alike in general, regardless of the personification, has been present among Christians for more than 1700 years. As the saying goes, “Where there is smoke there is fire.” So if the issue did not have a trace, it would not have appeared among the former Christians and in their ideologies.† The question that the Christians must pay attention to and ask themselves: From where did this sect of ancient Christians bring the thought that Jesus was not crucified and who was crucified was his look-alike? Is it just thoughts? Is this an intellectual matter or a reported historical one? Could it be said for example that this sect believed that Jesus℗ was not crucified, and that who was crucified was his lookalike, without a historical report that was delivered to them from some of those who lived at the time of the crucifixion?!!! I advise every free Christian to not pay attention to the saying of the Church today — that those who wrote this gospel or this text of the early Christians are a heretical group — because if you had asked this group too at that time about the tenets of the Church today, they would say it is a heresy; and if we had asked Arius and his followers about the Church today, they would have said it is heretical. So the act of the Church of considering all its Christian opposers heretical, as they do today with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, does not make any difference and it does not hide the truth that manifested clearly now, that what the Church says today is a controversial matter among the early Christians. Rather, it is still controversial till today, and the Christian sect of Jehovah’s Witnesses is the best proof today of this controversy. The established truth now — concerning the crucifixion — is that there is a historical document which has been analyzed by the international authorities specialized in artifacts and by using the latest scientific methods and it proved to date back to the beginning of the third century A.D. It mentions that Jesus was not crucified, but there was a look-alike who was crucified instead. So will the Christians settle for the statement of the Church: That this document belongs to an ancient heretical Christian sect?!!! Is this response from the Church scientific?! For example, is it not possible for any disputer to say to them, “Why is it not you who are committing heresy??!” Is it not proper now after the manifestation of these facts that the issue of the crucifixion be researched objectively and scientifically away from fanaticism and blind imitation? And this is a passage from the Gospel of Judah (and according to a translation which the Church verified with the Coptic text) stating clearly that Jesus was not crucified; rather, there was one who was made to resemble him and was crucified instead of him. Gospel of Judah, Scene 3: [Judah said, “Master, could it be that my lineage is under the control of the rulers?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Come, that I [ … two lines missing … ], but that you will grieve much when you see the kingdom and all its generation.” When he heard this, Judah said to him, “What good is it that I have received it? For you have set me apart for that generation.” Jesus answered and said, “You will become the thirteenth, and you will be cursed by the other generations — and you will come to rule over them. In the last days they will curse your ascent [47] to the holy [generation]”] [“But you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me.”] [“Already your horn has been raised, your wrath has been kindled, your star has shown brightly, and your heart has … [57]”] And in the previous passage: First: Judah is made to resemble Jesus and is crucified instead of him, and he sacrifices himself. Second: Judah will come at the end times to prevail. So Judah who is mentioned in some passages of the Gospel such as the previous one must be other than Judas Iscariot* who turned Jesus in as in the end of the Gospel of Judah, [They approached Judas and said to him, “What are you doing here? You are Jesus’ disciple.” Judas answered them as they wished. And he received some money and handed him over to them.] Gospel of Judah, Scene 3. Turning to the fact that the word Judah means praise or Ahmed in Arabic, meaning the name of the Mahdi or the Savior or the Comforter promised at the end times; it is thus clarified that the intended one by the other Judah who was made to resemble Jesus, and was crucified instead of him, and who Jesus℗ spoke to, saying that he will return and rule at the end times, is the Savior and the Comforter and the Mahdi, Ahmed, mentioned in the Torah, the Gospel, the Quran and the Will of the Messenger of God Muhammad, peace be upon him and his progeny.†

Ahmed al-Hasan a.s. - 13th Disciple

___________________________________________________________________________

*. And these are some of his sayings, [And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”] Matthew 26:39. [And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. And he said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”] Mark 14:35-36. [And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and knelt down and prayed, saying, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.”] Luke 22:41-42. †. Further clarification concerning the issue of the look-alike will come in the next topic, as for the importance of crucifixion and sacrifice, refer to Appendix 4.

*. Refer to Appendix 3. †. In his book The Gospel of Judah, Does its Discovery affect Christianity?, Fr. Abdul Maseeh Bassit acknowledges that this Gospel existed in the year of 180 A.D, and although he rejects the Gospel, what matters to me now is that he acknowledges the age of the document. Concerning the Christian group that believes in the Gospel of Judah, he says, “The first to mention this group and its ideologies from the fathers of the first Church, and who wrote about their compilation of the Gospel of Judah was St. Irenaeus the Bishop of Lugdunum (currently France) in 180 A.D. And this man was a student of St. Polycareous who was a student of St. John, the student of Jesus Christ.” And the date which the Father presents means that what the Christians believe in from what is mentioned in the Gospel of Judah was before Islam and before the Council of Nicaea held in 325 A.D. Refer to Appendix 2.

*. It is worthy of mentioning that what caused the clerics of the Church to denounce the Gospel of Judah was their belief that Judah mentioned in it was Judas Iscariot. Metropolitan Bishoy says, “How Could Judas Iscariot be the Author? If Judas committed suicide after betraying the Lord Christ, then when did he write it? Especially since it writes of the final hours before Crucifixion.” Reference: Simplifying Faith Lectures, “Lecture 16: The Gospel of Judas”. And a similar saying is by Fr. Thomas D. Williams, Dean of Theology at the Regina Apostolorum University in Rome, “The document [Gospel of Judah] paints Judas Iscariot in a positive light.” And the least one can say about such an understanding is that it is scientific treachery of making the matter ambiguous to people, because the Gospel of Judah does not have a statement mentioning its author to be Judas Iscariot; rather, this is only the understanding of the clerics of the Church. So certainty in the treachery of Judas Iscariot requires to not refer the name Judah in this document to him, and to search for another person named Judah who was present at the time of crucifixion, and who was the crucified one instead of Jesus℗ after God answered his prayer and passed the cup of crucifixion from him, as is clear in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. And the passages were mentioned earlier. †. For further information, refer to the book The Successor and Messenger of Imam al-Mahdi in the Torah, the Gospel and the Quran and The Letter of Guidance, both by Imam Ahmed alHasan℗, and his other books as well which revealed many divine truths that are unknown to the clerics of all religions.


Conclusion: From the clarification and knowledge of Imam Ahmed al-Hasan pbuh, we understand the following: In Gospel of Judah, Jesus tells Judas (which is not Judas Iscariot who went to the Jewish Scholars to betray Jesus) but Judas who was his lookalike, which was made to resemble him and was cruficied instead of him, that in End times he will be the 13th. Judah means Highly praised and so does Ahmed in Arabic. Judah is Ahmed. In Prophet Mohammed's Will we see that there will be 24 Divinely Guided leaders after him (pbuh) - 12 Imams and 12 Mahdis (pbut), after the 12th Imam pbuh his Son is Ahmed the Mahdi (The 13th): "...Then if death approaches him, let him hand it over to his son, Muhammad the Entrusted of the Holy Family of Muhammad peace be upon them. So these are the twelve Imams. Then after him, there will be twelve Mahdis. So if death approaches him, let him hand it over to his son, the first of the close ones, he has three names, one like mine and my father’s: Abdullah (servant of Allah), Ahmad and the third name is The Mahdi (rightly guided). He is the first of the believers.” Ahmed is the 13th from the 24 Successors from the Will and 24 Elders from Revelation , he is the crucified one at the place of Jesus.

And Ahmed al-Hasan a.s. was the first one to clarify and explain this secret and he is the first one to claim the Will of Prophet Mohammed (pbuhap) in 1400 years, as he is the rightful owner and only the true claimant can claim a Divine Will, and he is Ahmed, the Mahdi born in End Times, who is already here.

www.almahdyoon.org http://saviorofmankind.com/images/stories/pdf/13th Disciple.pdf
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Find it funny, how everyone is always going mad about the Trinity; when according to Revelation 4:4 the 24 Elders all sit on a throne as well, with the Lamb (Yeshua) being one of the Elders in Revelation 5:6.

This to me is the divine council of Elohim mentioned within Psalms 82:1....

These could also be seen as the Avatars of Hinduism with EL/Brahman being the Most High.

Then within that same Psalms 82:6, it says we're all Elohim, which have fallen down here Psalms 82:7. :innocent:

I believe it does not say that.

Rev 5:6 ¶ And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.

I beieve position does not mean membership. If a glass is in the midst of seven plates it does not mean the glass is a plate.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I beieve position does not mean membership. If a glass is in the midst of seven plates it does not mean the glass is a plate.
Partially valid point, it doesn't automatically make the glass a plate; yet only when considering Revelation 5:6...

Revelation 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones. On the thrones were twenty-four elders sitting, dressed in white garments, with crowns of gold on their heads.

If all the elders have a throne, and sit around the throne of God; where is Yeshua's seat then, if all the elders sit around the throne?

Yeshua is seated at the right hand side of God; yet outside of where the elders sit?

Or Yeshua is an elder, and sits next to God? :innocent:
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Partially valid point, it doesn't automatically make the glass a plate; yet only when considering Revelation 5:6...

Revelation 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones. On the thrones were twenty-four elders sitting, dressed in white garments, with crowns of gold on their heads.

If all the elders have a throne, and sit around the throne of God; where is Yeshua's seat then, if all the elders sit around the throne?

Yeshua is seated at the right hand side of God; yet outside of where the elders sit?

Or Yeshua is an elder, and sits next to God? :innocent:

I believe Jesus sits on the throne of God. Juxtaposition in this case is unity.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
When does the Lamb in Revelations sit on the throne? :eek:

Doesn't it bother you, that breaks the second commandment? :oops:

Re 22:3 And there shall be no curse any more: and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein: and his servants shall serve him;

I believe I do not break my own commandment. Does it bother you that God sees you as being in error?
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Does it bother you that God sees you as being in error?
Revelation 22:3 has the throne of God, and then the Lamb separate to it.... I'm not the one making things fit to suit my own agenda. :innocent:
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Revelation 22:3 has the throne of God, and then the Lamb separate to it.... I'm not the one making things fit to suit my own agenda. :innocent:

I don't believe I see any separation in this verse so show me what you think is separation.
 
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