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Trinity, Whaaa?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Corban, Jun 12, 2004.

  1. Corban

    Corban Member

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    I do not believe in the concept of the trinity, and would love for someone who does to explain a couple verses in the bible to me

    When Christ was baptized we have the Son on earth being baptized, the voice of the Father from heaven saying He was pleased with His son, and the Holy Ghost descending in the sign of the dove, three beings in three seperate places, could this be any plainer

    Or in John 17:21- Christ praying to His Father, about His disciples, says "that they all may be one, as thou, Father, ar in me, an I in thee, that they also may be one in us. If the Father and the Son are one being then did Jesus want His apostles to lose their bodies and become one being with God? obviously not, He was teaching the correct principle that He and God are one in purpose and that He wanted His apostles to be one in purpose.

    I welcome your comments on this, i would love to hear how people view these
     
  2. Corban

    Corban Member

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    Hello? is anyone out there? i know people believe in the trinity, can't someone explain just these two incidences to me, I would love to see how someone who believes in the trinity answers these
     
  3. Rex

    Rex Founder

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  4. Corban

    Corban Member

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    i recognize there are other posts out there on the trinity and i read them, but i did not find any that answered the two questions i had about the trinity, hence this new post
     
  5. Rex

    Rex Founder

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    Maybe you should make your topic title a little more appealing, and direct..

    :mrgreen:
     
  6. Corban

    Corban Member

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    Seriously, anyone? i know we've looked at the concept of the trinity before, i just want these two things answered, even if you don't believe in the trinity someone just explain to me how this is viewed by those who do
     
  7. quick

    quick Member

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    There is a good thread on this--Is the Trinity Biblical?--below in the topic list


    But, it is Biblical, and here it is in one simple quote from Jesus:

    Matthew 28

    19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

    This was the risen Christ speaking to his disciples at the end of the book of Matthew.

    As far as your verses, I do not see the problem. Perhaps the best way to explain the Trinity is to say that God is a plural singularity, like a nickel is one coin but has two sides and an edge.

    God tells us we are not going to understand fully all things in this life, but we will in the next. However, we can understand enough to know of God and his saving grace.
     
  8. Corban

    Corban Member

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    so your answer is that you can't explain those verses and i should should believe you
     
  9. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    The trinity is a concept that is impossible to logically understand to a human being. The belief in the trinity stems from faith and faith is not logical. Jesus could speak to his Father in heaven through prayer just as we can today. I would view this as an example of prayer.
     
  10. Orthodox

    Orthodox Born again apostate

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    Hello all,

    I believe that there is biblical evidence for the Trinity and that to a certain degree we are able to understand the concept of it, or at least understand that it is not a logical or biblical contradiction.

    The central teaching of Judaism (which, as a religion, Christianity claims to have fulfilled) is called the Shema. The Shema says "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one" (Duet. 6:4). This might not sound important enough to define a religion but it was absolutley revolutionary (to humankind at that time) in a the ancient world of polytheism and panthenons. There has been much debate over the question you have put forward and many clever people have sided with each view. The debate mostly concerns the deity of Christ so I will focus on that too.

    So, here goes....

    When asked what the greatest commandment was Jesus himself quoted the Shema (Mark 12:29) that is worthy of note to begin with. Also St. Paul wrote "there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things come and for whom we live" (1 Cor 8:6a). The bible, while denying the existance of more than one God, recognises the a plurality of persons in God. Sometimes the persons of the Trinity speak to each other "The LORD says to my Lord, "sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."(Ps 110:1). This last verse has long been hailed as a prophecy about the messiah by Jewish teachers of the Law and the like (as far back as 700BC). Some of the best examples of Jesus claiming to be God (just tell me if you want more) come from when he said in the Gospels "Before Abrahm was, I AM" (John 8:58). Here he deliberatly makes an allusion to himself of the name for God given in Exodus 3:14 when God says "I AM WHO I AM". Jesus calls himself older than Abrahm the greatest figure of Judaism and also called himself God. The Jew immediatley realised this for blashemy (given they didn't believe him) and they picked up stones to stone him (Mark 14:62, John 8: 58; 10:31-33; 18:5-6). There are many many more biblical references in both the old and New testements. Just let us know if you want to look at them.

    Many people object to the idea of the Trinity because they think that Father, Son and Holy Spirit means...
    1 + 1 + 1 = 3
    whereas the Christian looks at the Trinity this way...
    1 x 1 x 1= 1
    which is not contradictory.

    Anyway, what do you think about that?
    Orthodox
     
  11. PastorswifePurity

    PastorswifePurity New Member

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    Trinity isn't biblical. The Mystery of Godliness

    The fact that God became flesh is one of the most wonderful and yet one of the most incomprehensible things about God. "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the fleshÂ…" (I Timothy 3:16). Jesus is like no other man that ever has been or will be. He has two natures; He is fully God and fully man. (See Chapter 5 - THE SON OF GOD.) Most problems in people's minds concerning the Godhead come from this great mystery. They cannot understand the dual nature of Christ and cannot correctly separate his two roles. They cannot comprehend how God could take on the form of a baby and live among men.

    It is true that we cannot comprehend fully how the miraculous conception - the union of God and man - took place in the womb of Mary, but we can accept it by faith. In fact, if we do not believe that Jesus is come in the flesh we have an antichrist spirit (II John 7), but if we do accept this doctrine of Christ we will have both the Father and the Son (II John 9). Both Father and Son are revealed in Christ (John 10:30; 14:6-11).

    The mystery of God in flesh was a great stumbling block to the Jews. They never could understand how Jesus, being a man, could also be God (John 10:33). Because He claimed to be God they rejected Him and sought to kill Him (John 5:18; 10:33).

    Even today, many Jews cannot accept Jesus for this reason. In a conversation, an Orthodox Jewish rabbi told us he could never accept Jesus as God. [13] He felt that since God is an omnipresent, invisible Spirit He can never be seen by man and cannot be visible in flesh. His reasoning reminded us of the Jews in Jesus' day. Like this rabbi, they tried to limit God by their own preconceived ideas of how God should act. Furthermore, they did not have a thorough knowledge of the Old Testament Scriptures that proclaim the deity of the Messiah.

    While it is humanly difficult to understand how the infinite God could dwell in flesh, yet the Scriptures declare it to be so. We reminded the rabbi of God's appearance in the form of a man to Abraham in Genesis 18. He admitted this was a problem for him, but he tried to explain it in terms of an anthropomorphism or figurative language. Then we referred to other verses of Scripture such as Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, Jeremiah 23:6, and Micah 5:2 to show that the Messiah would be Jehovah God. The rabbi had no answer except to say that our translations of these verses of Scripture were possibly incorrect. He promised to study them further.

    There never has been a mystery as to "persons" in the Godhead. The Bible clearly states that there is only one God, and this is easy for all to understand. The only mystery about the Godhead is how God could come in flesh, how Jesus could be both God and man. But the truth of this mystery has been revealed to those who will believe. The mystery of Jesus Christ has been kept secret since the world began, but was revealed in the New Testament age (Romans 16:25-26; Colossians 1:25-27). A mystery in the New Testament is simply a plan of God that was not understood in the Old Testament but which has been made known to us. We "may understandÂ… the mystery of Christ which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" (Ephesians 3:4-5).

    We can know the mystery of God and the Father, which is Christ (Colossians 2:2; see also the NIV and TAB). In fact, Paul explained this mystery by saying that in Jesus Christ dwells all the wisdom, knowledge, and fulness of God (Colossians 2:3, 9). The mystery of God has been revealed to us by God's Spirit (I Corinthians 2:7-10). This revelation comes to us through God's Word, which is illuminated by the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 2:7-10). The light of Christ, who is the image of God, has shined in our hearts (II Corinthians 4:3-4). There is therefore no biblical mystery about the Godhead and certainly no mystery about the number of persons in the Godhead. The only mystery is Christ, and He has been revealed to us! The mystery of God and the mystery of Christ converge in the Incarnation. It is simply that the one God of Israel came to the earth in flesh. This mystery has been revealed and God's Word declares that it has been made known to us today.
     
  12. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    The Catholic concept of the Trinity stems from neoplatonic ideas that were very popular during the time of Constantine. This doctrine was decided upon during the council of Nice. Those that did not subscribe to this impossibly esoteric idea of God as "incomprehensible and uncreate" and all that jazz were killed.

    The truth is that the Bible usees many terms that have dualistic meanings. Often the word "God" is refering to the Father, and sometimes the Son. The trick isn't to figure out how to make the Son and the Father the same person, but how to tell when it refers to the Father, and when the Son. Think of the Trinity as the Godhead. It's not three beings in one, it's three beings in three different beings that share one title. They are one in purpose, will and perfection, but they are seperate and distinct beings.

    Look at Christ's Intercessory Prayer. He prayed that we may all become one as He and the Father are one. He wasn't praying that we all morph into one uber-being, but that our will may unite with that of the Father and of the Son.

    The accepted view of the trinity is just esoteric enigmas that people throw around to make themselves feel spiritual. Don't worry about all that stuff. God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are three distinct individuals that share the same goals, will, and purpose.
     
  13. Orthodox

    Orthodox Born again apostate

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    Pastorswifepurity,

    you said:

    then you said:

    It is obvious you have l;ifted this straight out of a book with out referencing it!
    If you are going to plagarise at least make sure you delete the in book references to itself. example below.

    Did you write a whole book with chapters going on and above of five and just forget to submit it?

    orthodox
     
  14. Orthodox

    Orthodox Born again apostate

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    pastorswifepurity,

    I do believe, however, in the doctrine of "theanthropos" God-Man which is expounded upon in the passage you quoted.

    One essence three persons is the doctrine of the Trinity.
    One person two natures is the doctrine of theanthropos.
    How can you believe that one is true while the other impossible? That Jesus claimed to be God is obvious. That he also prayed to God as though he was seperate to some extent is also obvious.
    You say:
    Are you using the Trinity to disprove the Trinity?

    WHICH BOOK IS THIS FROM?

    I only want to know to understand exactly what persuainion they are positing. In addition to plagarising you have plagarised a part which doesn't say anything other than it's "obvious" how many persons in the Trinity.
    Orthodox
     
  15. Proverbial Flamethrower

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    I'm very sorry pastorswifepurity, but I think you have just been nailed by Orthodox.
     
  16. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    You can learn about the trinity in this web address

    http://www.theheavenlydoctrines.org/static/d6548/539.htm

    Harry
     
  17. Corban

    Corban Member

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    I would encourage you to read my original question as you ignored it completely. I understand what people believe about the trinity, i understand that the Bible teaches that God and Christ and the Holy Ghost are one. We have ample posts defining these issues. Which is why i put up this post to have two very specific issues answered, and you failed to address either of those.

    I do believe God and Christ are one, but not the way you do. This is why i would like you to explain John 17:21. Here Jesus explains how He and God are one, and explains that they are not the same being, but one in purpose. If you read it as they are one being they you must apply that to the whole scripture, when praying for His apostle Christ said, :that they may be one, as thou Father art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us." and in verse 22 "that they may be one even as we are one" so according to the concept of the trinity Jesus wanted his apostles to leave their bodies and become one being. this is what i would like an answer to , how does someone who believes in the trinity interpret that? now try to stick to the topic
     
  18. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    There are two that make up God's Divine Essence,and that is Divine Good and Divine Truth,and Divine Truth is the Word.

    It is little understood in the church why the Lord is called the Word. It is because "the Word" This is why He is called the Light, of which also it is said that it came into the world. As the Divine Truth and the Divine Good make one in Jesus Christ,* and in the Lord had been one from eternity.

    It is said, "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." "Life" is Divine Good; and "light" is Divine Truth.

    It is this one that is meant by, "In the beginning the Word was with God, and God was the Word." "With God," is in God.For Truth is in Good, and Good in Truth.The Lord is Divine Truth as to His Human. The Divine Good and Divine Truth in Him are one. The Divine Good in the Lord is the Father.

    So in another place in John:
    And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own Self, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was (John 17:5).

    "With Thine own Self," is in Thyself, and therefore it is said, "and God was the Word;" and elsewhere, that the Lord is in the Father,and the Father in Him.The Father and He are one,as the Divine and Human are one in Jesus.

    As therefore the Word is the Divine Truth of the Divine Good, it follows that it is Jehovah Himself,the Lord by whom all things were made that are made; for all things have been created from Divine Good by means of Divine Truth.

    Concerning the Lord's Prayer:
    The Lord's Prayer, which says: "Our Father, who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name, Thy kingdom come." The Christian Church understand these words the Father in His Divine alone; but it must be understood as the Father's Human also.This too is the Father's Human, which is meant by the words "hallowed be thy name"

    For the Lord said: "Father, glorify your name," that is, glorifiy your Human. When this happens, the kingdom of God comes. The instruction to use this prayer has been given us for the present time, that is, so that God the Father may be approached through His Human,which is the Son of God.

    The Lord also said: "No one comes to the Father except through Me," and the prophet said: "A child is born for us, a Son is given to us, whose name is God, Hero, the everlasting Father".

    And elsewhere: "You, Jehovah, are our Father, your name is our Redeemer from of old." There are thousands of other passages where the Lord our Saviour is called Jehovah. This is the true explanation of those words in the Lord's Prayer.

    Harry
     
  19. Corban

    Corban Member

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    Wow, once again someone managed to completely ignore my original question
     
  20. Corban

    Corban Member

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    I've had this post here for a while now, and have recieved several replies, but i have yet to have a single person address my original question. I am not looking for your concept of the trinity, i understand what people believe about the concept of the trinity, i just want someone who believes in the trinity to explain those two parts of the bible in their view
     
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