Trinity: True or False?

[paradox]

Lets start with Tertullion: The father of the Trinity. He himself stated that Christ was subordinate to God the Father. Then after ~120 yrs the council of Nicene assaulted Arius for his assertion of Rev 3:14 that Jesus is a created being. Why did he assert this: Because it is Christ own words. Also please look at the history of any changes and the acceptance of the book of Revelations into canon. This shows that there were NO changes in the verse Rev 3:14.

Sorry but I know nothing about this, but if there were no changes to Rev 3:14 then that's good, because it would be worse if someone replaced it, I mean this means the scriptures are authentic regardless of how difficult to interpret.

Remember what happened when Jesus spoke against the religious powers of the time: They killed him.

What do you think of Luke 20:46-47?
This message somehow as if it applies to today's times hm...

Now look at the intervening years after the Nicene council. It is sad but as the Roman church solidified its authority what happened.

I don't see why Nicene council should be considered wrong, it was initiated by caesar not the church because of "arianism"

Any one that was not in the priesthood and wanting to translate, read, or know in depth the Bible was killed. Again just like our Savior!

Can't disagree, but I think the reason is that ordinary people of that time were not literate enough and would not be fit for interpretation, this is also the reason why masses were served on Latin, with intention to make sure people would not misinterpret.
Exorcisms were also in latin so that ordinary people would not know the secrets of it.

So with this said. 1700yrs later: I am supposed to believe a council that assaulted, murdered literally 10,000s of both believers and non believers.

Sorry I don't know that, didn't investigate.

Please look into the extensive work of each of the works that were added to the cannon. Also remember that in each of them there is time added. When discovered to when added: When writing started and how long it took the author (John in this case) to finish the book.

We can see with our eyes that interpretation is hard, so I guess they needed time to ensure no false scriptures or additions go in, this were the times of many false scriptures, like gnostic gospels.
analyzing all the scriptures and originals was not easy for sure.

The additions the book on 1 John 5:7 after the east west split.

Don't know that either, but I know for example that KJ bible is far from accurate translation, it's missing several verses and there is a valid argument for this.

And this is why I came to the conclusion I have to get out of the tradition of man

I respect your scepticism because even though I'm Catholic I have a lot against the way the church is headed.
I think there may be schism within Catholic church, because of gay lobbies that somehow got in in secrecy over time.

Investigating the motives of early Catholic church ex. in middle ages is not easy. we can only speculate.

 

[paradox]

The churches states are only SAMPLE churches that illustrate the points Jesus wanted to make. There were way more than 7 churches in Asia Minor.

The examples are exactly as we see them, today. Some allow wrongful teachings (most of them…!), others are greedy and seek riches, others are middle of the road, uncommitted, anything goes, the latest trend, ‘Luke warm’, etc.

Number 7 in the bible means "fullness" therefore 7 churches may according to this as well mean all churches of Asia Minor.
On another hand the meaning of a church is not physical building, but rather flock of a shepard or priest that was responsible for area, it means a group of faithful, therefore 7 churches may literally mean 7 larger groups of faithful that filled whole Asia Minor.

All of the 7 mentioned churches are in today turkey which is muslim country, therefore I think revelation may start fulfilling by spreading the word of God to those muslims living there, maybe even holly war, but we can't go further than that in interpretation because the rest assumes Jesus is already there, his second comming already occurs after that and mentions Jesus waging war against enemies.

 

[TreeOfLife]

we are looping on each others email. I see the email you just sent but it has not posted on this site yet

Luke 20-14-16: I can hope it does not, but with that said I believe you are right as the protectors of our faith have not done that good of job.

Ariunism was the first heresy: Think thru that: Arius did not tow the line of those that were in power. But yet REv 3:14 has never been adulterated as far as translation. So man starting at the Nicene council state that they know more than the scriptures

That is making God in mans image period!

The 10,000s reference is to all that were killed in religious wars that the catholic church started and all that were killed for heresy that the wanted to seek what the scriptures really stated

1 John 5:7 is called the johnness comma: It shows up in the Roman church translation of 1 John but not in the earl Greek (eastern) church. The eastern church added it to there canon ~120yrs ago

BTW: I too am Catholic

 

[paradox]

1 John 5:7 is called the johnness comma: It shows up in the Roman church translation of 1 John but not in the earl Greek (eastern) church. The eastern church added it to there canon ~120yrs ago

thanks for sharing, I didn't know this but now I did a bit of reading and stumbled upon this explanation:

During the early growth of the Christian church, ministers (whether saved or not) wrote down doctrines that they said were Christian and Biblical. Starting after the death of the apostles (about 100 AD) many people taught the lie that Jesus was not God the Son and Son of God, or that Jesus became God at His baptism, or the false doctrine that the Holy Spirit was not God or was not eternal.

The growing religion that became known as Roman Catholic, after many debates eventually agreed on the doctrine of the Trinity. So they had no reason to remove 1 John 5:7 from their Bibles, since it supported what they taught.

But the Greek Eastern Orthodox religion was combating a heresy called "Sabellianism," and would have found it easier to combat the heresy by simply removing the troubling passage from their Bibles.

Chick.com: Is 1 John 5:7 not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If it is true, why is it in the KJV?

Therefore there is also a thesis that Eastern church modified their bible.

 

[Soapy]

John 14:20 shows that the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of Christ and our spirit reside together: 3 in one.
Trinity

You are counting incorrectly: ‘Our’ is plural - not ‘one’!

I know you understand … just let it go, there’s nothing wrong in being corrected, it’s a good thing to accept correction.

 

[Soapy]

Number 7 in the bible means "fullness" therefore 7 churches may according to this as well mean all churches of Asia Minor.
On another hand the meaning of a church is not physical building, but rather flock of a shepard or priest that was responsible for area, it means a group of faithful, therefore 7 churches may literally mean 7 larger groups of faithful that filled whole Asia Minor.

All of the 7 mentioned churches are in today turkey which is muslim country, therefore I think revelation may start fulfilling by spreading the word of God to those muslims living there, maybe even holly war, but we can't go further than that in interpretation because the rest assumes Jesus is already there, his second comming already occurs after that and mentions Jesus waging war against enemies.

Thank you, I am however fully aware what ‘7’ means and ‘Church’ means. I’ve presented the latter in many posts elsewhere (though the recipients seem unmoved by the explanation)

The separation of explanation of the different ‘congregations’ given by Jesus, however, still holds as how different congregations throughout history were and are and will perform. The ‘physical building’ church Jesus says, is replaced, because of the misbehaviours he outlined, by the TRUE CHURCH, which is a SPIRITUAL church of the individual. That is: The church in Spirit and Truth!! In other words, each and every one of us is responsible for how we worship - and that worship must be private, and in complete reverence from ourselves - not from a ‘Corporate’ leadership.

This does not mean there is no more corporate gathering… there will always be a need for corporate gatherings but as anyone who attends them will know, virtually all of the worship events are routine repeated wordings that are reeled off with very little personally invested feelings.

 

[Muffled]

Nope. I never said "Father isn't God".

I believe as Jesus said God is a Spirit and other parts of scripture say that God is Holy. It is true that Holy Spirit is often used to refer to the Paraclete but in reality it is not quite the same thing. The Paraclete is the Holy Spirit in believers. The Son is the Holy Spirit in the body of Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

God has 8 spirits. See rev 3.1
Also wouldn't the trinity be closer in doctrine as in John 14.20?

I believe God is one Spirit. What Rev is referring to is instances of that Spirit. An instance of God's Spirit in NYC and an instance of God's Spirit in Rome does not mean that God has two spirits.

 

[firedragon]

I believe as Jesus said God is a Spirit and other parts of scripture say that God is Holy. It is true that Holy Spirit is often used to refer to the Paraclete but in reality it is not quite the same thing. The Paraclete is the Holy Spirit in believers. The Son is the Holy Spirit in the body of Jesus.

Irrelevant.

 

[Soapy]

I believe God is one Spirit. What Rev is referring to is instances of that Spirit. An instance of God's Spirit in NYC and an instance of God's Spirit in Rome does not mean that God has two spirits.

God is the Father of Spirits. He is the source of all that is.

There is no ‘instances of God’s spirit’ in multiple places. The spirit of God is everywhere at once like air is everywhere around the world all at once. It is not a piecemeal element.

The spirit of God can be devoid in a place only in terms of it not being employed - like there is oxygen in water but it may not be directly employable (many creatures cannot breathe oxygen directly from water)

The spirit of God is employable when we have the right Godly mindset to employ it.