Trinity: True or False?

[Muffled]

I Catholicism's definition of "Trinity", it posits one God with Jesus and the Holy Spirit being of the "essence" of God. The philosophical influence of Aristotle especially permeates early Christian writings that were written in Koine Greek.

Essence - Wikipedia

I believe that is correct God is essentially God in all three members of the Trinity.

 

[moorea944]

I believe I and my wife were rarely on the same page. To be one we would always have to be in agreement. The only way to be in agreement is to be the same person.

Your kidding me.. right?.....

 

[Muffled]

Your kidding me.. right?.....

Absolutely not. I believe you will never find two people in total agreement.

 

[moorea944]

Absolutely not. I believe you will never find two people in total agreement.

Wow, I totally disagree with that one, but no worries............

 

[TreeOfLife]

If you look at the doctrine of theosis, and the deification of the soul, it might not be hard to imagine that each Christian would become God too as we enter into everlasting friendship and eternal love with him.

I have to say this might be the best answer of what we as the children of God are to become

...So it's not hard to imagine an all loving God willing to share Himself, in all his glory, as the most profound act of love imaginable... Whether it be with the Holy Spirit, Jesus, or even, dare I say, yourself!

2 Corinthians 3:17–18

 

[Soapy]

I believe that is correct God is essentially God in all three members of the Trinity.

What???

 

[TreeOfLife]

What???

God has 8 spirits. See rev 3.1
Also wouldn't the trinity be closer in doctrine as in John 14.20?

 

[Soapy]

Rational would mean your arguments are in accordance with reason or logic - YOU are not even close to being making any sense!! I have debated with so many Trinitarians in many forums but you are the MOST irrational person I have ever come across….and you said you believe you are more rational than most people ??! Well, I will say this - you do have a good sense of humor !!

See what I mean when I said “you are the MOST irrational person I have ever come across!” ?? NOBODY is saying the Father is not God !!

Your head is so muddled up, Muffled, that you don’t even know what you are discussing here!! We are talking about the man-made doctrine of the trinity, NOT whether the Father is God or not – we all know the Father is God !!

You claim Jesus is also God, now prove it, that is, WITHOUT ‘cherry-picking’ a verse here and a verse there and claim ‘that prove the trinity/Jesus is God’ without even explaining with reason or logic why those verses you ‘cherry-picked’ prove the trinity/Jesus is God – now, that would be irrational, NOT rational.

Muffled, or any trinitarian, will never furnish answers to these questions because they cannot… in fact it would be impossible to do so. Hence you (and I) will only receive crass responses. They do not fear the punishment that awaits them for their deceit (I am not condemning them - their determination to stick to their very false ideology may do that for them!)

 

[Soapy]

God has 8 spirits. See rev 3.1
Also wouldn't the trinity be closer in doctrine as in John 14.20?

John 14.20 simply says that Jesus agrees with the Father.

How does ‘Jesus and the Father’ constitute a Trinity?

 

[TreeOfLife]

John 14.20 simply says that Jesus agrees with the Father.

How does ‘Jesus and the Father’ constitute a Trinity?

John 14.20
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Shows all 3 of us are one in spirit

 

[paradox]

God has 8 spirits. See rev 3.1

not 8 but 7.
This are 7 angels: Revelation 8:2

 

[TreeOfLife]

not 8 but 7.
This are 7 angels: Revelation 8:2

?????
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write;

These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Christ himself says it is 7 spirits.
Again. Why is it man can't believe the words on the page. And not just you. We somehow want to make God in our image.

And that is why I am not a trinitarian

 

[paradox]

Again. Why is it man can't believe the words on the page. And not just you. We somehow want to make God in our image.

The revelation is clear that God will send 7 angels to 7 churches.

Revelation 3:22 says one "Spirit" (not "Spirits" - plural) talks to churches, what should we do with that then?
If you really whish to take revelation word for word then please explain this contradiction with spirit vs spirits which arises based on your interpretation..

 

[TreeOfLife]

The revelation is clear that God will send 7 angels to 7 churches.

Revelation 3:22 says one "Spirit" (not "Spirits" - plural) talks to churches, what should we do with that then?
If you really whish to take revelation word for word then please explain this contradiction with spirit vs spirits which arises based on your interpretation..

Yes Jesus sent 7 angels to the 7 churches but in the 2nd part of 3.1 Jesus himself states he has theb7spirits od God.

In 3.22 It is Jesus' declaration that it is him only that is declaring this

 

[paradox]

Yes Jesus sent 7 angels to the 7 churches but in the 2nd part of 3.1 Jesus himself states he has theb7spirits od God.

In 3.22 It is Jesus' declaration that it is him only that is declaring this

Here is a hint that may go in your favor: Revelation 1:20

There is no mention of 7 spirits here however.

If we take Revelation 3:1 literally, that is 7 spirits of God, then the broader context does not hold.
But there is no way that this are 7 holly ghosts, no such thing is mentioned anywhere in the bible.

 

[Soapy]

John 14.20
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Shows all 3 of us are one in spirit

I’m not understanding… how does this show a trinity?

The spirit is GOD’s spirit… Jesus’ spirit is aligned to the Father’s and the spirit of those given life at the end of time will be aligned with the Father’s spirit.

That is not a trinity since those given life will be millions…

 

[TreeOfLife]

I agree that the broader context does not hold. But if we can not take our Saviors word for it then we are left to drift on the sea of relativism.

Lets start with Tertullion: The father of the Trinity. He himself stated that Christ was subordinate to God the Father. Then after ~120 yrs the council of Nicene assaulted Arius for his assertion of Rev 3:14 that Jesus is a created being. Why did he assert this: Because it is Christ own words. Also please look at the history of any changes and the acceptance of the book of Revelations into canon. This shows that there were NO changes in the verse Rev 3:14.

Remember what happened when Jesus spoke against the religious powers of the time: They killed him.

Now look at the intervening years after the Nicene council. It is sad but as the Roman church solidified its authority what happened.

Any one that was not in the priesthood and wanting to translate, read, or know in depth the Bible was killed. Again just like our Savior!

So with this said. 1700yrs later: I am supposed to believe a council that assaulted, murdered literally 10,000s of both believers and non believers.

Add to that: Why the words in red have been discounted the the ash bin and reasoned out is just amazing.
Man has forced, killed and coerced the populous to believe or DIE over the revelations given to Gods children.

Please look into the extensive work of each of the works that were added to the cannon. Also remember that in each of them there is time added. When discovered to when added: When writing started and how long it took the author (John in this case) to finish the book.

The additions the book on 1 John 5:7 after the east west split.

And this is why I came to the conclusion I have to get out of the tradition of man

 

[TreeOfLife]

John 14:20 shows that the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of Christ and our spirit reside together: 3 in one.
Trinity

 

[Soapy]

The revelation is clear that God will send 7 angels to 7 churches.

Revelation 3:22 says one "Spirit" (not "Spirits" - plural) talks to churches, what should we do with that then?
If you really whish to take revelation word for word then please explain this contradiction with spirit vs spirits which arises based on your interpretation..

The churches states are only SAMPLE churches that illustrate the points Jesus wanted to make. There were way more than 7 churches in Asia Minor.

The examples are exactly as we see them, today. Some allow wrongful teachings (most of them…!), others are greedy and seek riches, others are middle of the road, uncommitted, anything goes, the latest trend, ‘Luke warm’, etc.

 

[TreeOfLife]

I respectfully disagree. Again: Please look into the history of the book of revelations: how, when and what is whole and what had to be put together from separate sources to make whole.

I have to believe in the books as written because if I believe in a theologians work above the Bible then to me I have lost my anchor in truth. If I believe in theologians then I can believe anything I want or they say.

As for contradictions they are there: But not is rev: chapter 3