Trinity claims that the Jews believed that a Son is equal to his Father

[Soapy]

This is rich. Note - no ACTUAL EXPLANATION forthcoming from you. And the best part is how you state that I don't undrstand and don't have the context, and then in the very next sentence please see the bold red emphasis of mine:

Seems like you're not too entirely sure yourself. Theists ideas and ability to defend their positions are a joke.

74x12 is not wrong!

He correctly selected the right verses for the discussion.

I did not state any verses specifically so that it was only those who know their scriptures should rightly comment ….

So:

• “For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.” (John 5:18-20)

and:

1. “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one. Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (John 10:29-33)
2. “what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? (John 10:36)
3. “Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.” (John 20:37)

Is it not clear that there is something not quite right in terms of what the Jews of the time believed and what Trinitarians claim?

The Jews erred in claiming that only God can do good deeds. When they witnessed Jesus doing these same good deeds they accused him of making himself out to be God. But Jesus countered by claiming that GOD had singled him out and “SET HIM APART” (this is what is meant by the ANOINTING WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT at the river Jordan - a consecration - a sanctification!!) Therefore, WITH THE POWER OF GOD Jesus was able to perform the good works of the Father. The Jews mistook this as a like a magician (an honest magician?? - the deeds were real!!!!)

Please remember that the FIRST PRINCIPLES of the Jews at that time was that THE MESSIAH would be a MILITARY messiah who would rid the Jews of their Roman overlords! Healing people and overturning the hard lines laws instilled in them by Moses was not their primary thought!

However, in BOTH sets of verses, Jesus states that he is the Son of God…. Doing the words of God, his Father….

It also reveals that Jesus is FIRST SHOWN what to do and THEN he does likewise. The question then is: ‘How can Jesus be claiming to be God if he has to first see GOD do ….’

Does God ‘Learn from another’?

Does God ‘Follow another’?

But a good Son both ‘Learns’ and ‘Follows’ his Father!!

By following and doing exactly as the Father does, the Son then becomes one with the Father. No linguistic tautology can make out the son to be both equal to the Father and therefore us the Father (or equal to God and therefore is God!).

Therefore it is a false claim that Trinitarians are making!

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I emphasise, I did not say that there was… I am asking because TRINITY claims that Jesus saying:

• “God is my Father”

sparked the Jews to claim Jesus was:

• “[He], though a mere man, was Making himself out to be EQUAL TO GOD”….

because he said he was the Son of God!

Taking things literally from The Bible is a fun pastime of mine also, I admit. However, it seems to me that this is simply much like some other things written in The Bible itself. Things that give people these ideas that if you deny God, then you are making yourself out to be a God, or are choosing something else as your God.

Like John 10:33:
We are not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.

Or Matthew 6:24
No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

So, the claim made that Jesus is "the son of God" puts him squarely in the camp of "deity", right? I mean, traditions in all sorts of cultures before any of this Bible crap have it such that the sons and daughters of gods (even of gods and human coupling) are powerful, godly beings with otherwordly powers. So this implies that Jesus is then a deific personage of some order higher than your average human being. So they said something hyperbolic about him and made it out that he was claiming "to be God." Doesn't really seem that confusing or conspiratorial to me. People are dumb. They say things. Other people might write them down. Poring over them looking for all the hints of some conspiratorial secret isn't always going to turn up anything of any worth. I, personally, think you've found one of the ones that has absolutely no worth. So keep looking! You might actually find something of some use in The Bible! Who knows?! Miracles are said, by some, to happen!

 

[AdamjEdgar]

The Jews were waiting in anticipation for the coming messiah, the high servant of God, ….

‘Servant’ is akin to ‘Son’.

Jesus was SENT to perform a task….!

God is never SENT… Who could send him?

Father is never SENT… Who could send him?

The Holy Spirit OF GOD is SENT … Who could send it? (the Father - it is HIS HOLY SPIRIT which He sends as a comforter to Jesus first and then to the Disciples/Apostles.)

Son is SENT… who SENT him? (The Father can send send his servant : Isaiah 42:1)

Now read Isaiah 9:6

After reading that...who was sent to us again?

Clearly Isaiah prophesied Mighty God and Everlasting Father was coming to be our saviour!

The question of whether Jews believed Jesus was God is far too broad...which Jews. The leadership or the people (clearly tens of thousands of Jewish people believed)

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Can anyone give any enlightenment on where there is evidence of a Jewish tradition of a son being equal to his Father … and how Jesus, who was not a ‘birthed’ son of God could be part of this tradition.

If I can make a suggestion. Ask people to provide you the evidence in the original language the texts were written in. i.e. ancient Hebrew. If you do that the claims that are made of a Jewish trinity are invented in translations like Greek, Latin, and English.

In ancient times the only Jews that had strange beleifs, anything close to the trinity, were considered those who do Avodah Zara and they were the exact types that all of the prophets in the Hebrew Tanakh wrote against.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

74x12 is not wrong!

He correctly selected the right verses for the discussion.

I did not state any verses specifically so that it was only those who know their scriptures should rightly comment ….

So:

• “For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.” (John 5:18-20)

and:

1. “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one. Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (John 10:29-33)
2. “what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? (John 10:36)
3. “Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.” (John 20:37)

Is it not clear that there is something not quite right in terms of what the Jews of the time believed and what Trinitarians claim?

The Jews erred in claiming that only God can do good deeds. When they witnessed Jesus doing these same good deeds they accused him of making himself out to be God. But Jesus countered by claiming that GOD had singled him out and “SET HIM APART” (this is what is meant by the ANOINTING WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT at the river Jordan - a consecration - a sanctification!!) Therefore, WITH THE POWER OF GOD Jesus was able to perform the good works of the Father. The Jews mistook this as a like a magician (an honest magician?? - the deeds were real!!!!)

Please remember that the FIRST PRINCIPLES of the Jews at that time was that THE MESSIAH would be a MILITARY messiah who would rid the Jews of their Roman overlords! Healing people and overturning the hard lines laws instilled in them by Moses was not their primary thought!

However, in BOTH sets of verses, Jesus states that he is the Son of God…. Doing the words of God, his Father….

It also reveals that Jesus is FIRST SHOWN what to do and THEN he does likewise. The question then is: ‘How can Jesus be claiming to be God if he has to first see GOD do ….’

Does God ‘Learn from another’?

Does God ‘Follow another’?

But a good Son both ‘Learns’ and ‘Follows’ his Father!!

By following and doing exactly as the Father does, the Son then becomes one with the Father. No linguistic tautology can make out the son to be both equal to the Father and therefore us the Father (or equal to God and therefore is God!).

Therefore it is a false claim that Trinitarians are making!

Yes, yes... the trinity is a particularly stupid idea, and I get that there is little actual mention of anything even tangentially related to the idea in The Bible, and that you may have here some evidence that actually points to the idea that the trinity wasn't on the minds of anyone involved in the birthing of Christianity, and indeed, quite the opposite was voiced - that Jesus and God were separate. You'll get no argument from me. Oh... except the part where I ask you to evidence God's existence first so that I can make sure that investigating any of this stuff is even worth a dang.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

In order to attempt to class Jesus Christ as being God, trinity teaching claims that the Jews are correct in claiming that Jesus, being the son of God, means that Jesus is equal to God, and therefore is God.

I cannot understand that [il]logic and also can find nothing in Jewish tradition that makes any such claim of a Son being equal to his Father.

Furthermore, trinity claims that Jesus was not ‘born’ from the Father… which further confuses the issue (pardon the pun!) since then Jesus being ‘son’ of God therefore has no meaning in terms of equality with the Father.

Can anyone give any enlightenment on where there is evidence of a Jewish tradition of a son being equal to his Father … and how Jesus, who was not a ‘birthed’ son of God could be part of this tradition.

The following videos may also help.

 

[rosends]

I meant "friendship with God"

we are commanded to love God. I'm not sure what you would mean by "friendship." He isn't human and I'm not inviting him over for cookies.

 

[74x12]

In order to attempt to class Jesus Christ as being God, trinity teaching claims that the Jews are correct in claiming that Jesus, being the son of God, means that Jesus is equal to God, and therefore is God.

I cannot understand that [il]logic and also can find nothing in Jewish tradition that makes any such claim of a Son being equal to his Father.

Furthermore, trinity claims that Jesus was not ‘born’ from the Father… which further confuses the issue (pardon the pun!) since then Jesus being ‘son’ of God therefore has no meaning in terms of equality with the Father.

Can anyone give any enlightenment on where there is evidence of a Jewish tradition of a son being equal to his Father … and how Jesus, who was not a ‘birthed’ son of God could be part of this tradition.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5:18)

 

[stvdv]

we are commanded to love God.
I'm not sure what you would mean by "friendship."
He isn't human and I'm not inviting him over for cookies.

Okay. Thanks.
"to love on command" doesn't work well for me: it's a gradual process, not instant achievable

Hence in India probably they use the word friendship
Trust God with all your secrets, offer everything you do, think and speak to God. Total surrender...

You are free of course to not invite him over for cookies

 

[Flankerl]

Hmmm... I don't think he would call his child "everlasting Father".

But, yes, crazy stuff... mind boggling even.

Do you realise what Micah means?
It doesn't mean that everyone who is named Micah is like Hashem.


But wow I mean it hadn't honestly occurred to me that non-Jews do not realise that Hebrew names have a meaning.

 

[Kenny]

Sorry, Ken, what is it you are saying?

Nothing in that quote shows anything towards answering the question.

Could you pull your claim apart into explicit points?

My point is simply that the designation of "son" includes Everlasting Father, Mighty God, Wonderful, Counselor, Prince of Peace -

And that it is something to think about.

There are other reasons, of course, as stipulated by those who believe in Yeshua Hamashiach

 

[Kenny]

Sorry, Ken, what is it you are saying?

Nothing in that quote shows anything towards answering the question.

Could you pull your claim apart into explicit points?

My point is simply that the designation of "son" includes Everlasting Father, Mighty God, Wonderful, Counselor, Prince of Peace -

And that it is something to think about.

There are other reasons, of course, as stipulated by those who believe in Yeshua Hamashiack but simply addressing a specific point in your OP

 

[Kenny]

Do you realise what Micah means?
It doesn't mean that everyone who is named Micah is like Hashem.


But wow I mean it hadn't honestly occurred to me that non-Jews do not realise that Hebrew names have a meaning.

WOW! It never occurred to me that people would think that we didn't know that names have a meaning. Who would have thought there is even a site that answers the question "What does my name mean".

The question is, do you know what Micah means?

 

[rational experiences]

All human's are human.

Science says you have to be a human living to express human thesis science.

Yet a thesis first means a belief of thoughts. Are you observe everything first then make up stories. So first as words thoughts it's pretend.

You say I proved maths. Ok. You took substance converted them. Proven. As you did it. Yet you're a human who did iit...a God didn't do it.

The Trinity was a human brain entrainment chant. Believe in three human status by my terms.

The adult father human that a baby son inherits life as growth.

A baby son man.

Holy Ghost the gas hosts only the heavens owned.

As you stood on Rock only.

Term Jesus died at age 33. Hardly the age a human father should own.

Reason for the preaching.

False preaching says the taught science.

So you say it's not science as it's not it's training scientists to believe as men who invented science to honour human life.

But you don't. It's why you believe in Jesus as scientists as you believe in causing it.

 

[Brian2]

You are right that the post is nonsensical…. I agree…. But that’s exactly the point…… You diagnosed the problem but failed in the prognosis!!

The point is to look at the question and see that if asks if there was such a belief among Jews that a son is equal to his Father…..

The majority of replies do not address the question but seek only to put a point of view sideways on.

I do apologise that I did not state that I was speaking ONLY from the scriptures…. I do not know what Jews believe today!!!

In the scriptures…. it is made out that the Jews were claiming that Jesus was making himself out to be GOD (though they only believed in an only Deity whom they called ‘God’ therefore it has to be put down to ‘Making himself EQUAL to their one God’).

But trinity… ‘Christian’ Trinity belief states that this EQUALITY meant that Jesus WAS THAT ONE GOD!!

The point therefore is that TRINITY claims that being EQUAL TO GOD meant BEING GOD!

I asked the question of is there such a claim in Judaism? More specifically, at the time of Jesus’ mission and before that, WAS THERE A TRADITION among Jews that a Son was equal to his Father….???

I emphasise, I did not say that there was… I am asking because TRINITY claims that Jesus saying:

• “God is my Father”

sparked the Jews to claim Jesus was:

• “[He], though a mere man, was Making himself out to be EQUAL TO GOD”….

because he said he was the Son of God!

But I assert that there was no such claim - that this set of claims were set out by trinitarian interpreters who tried to make it seem that way……

…. hence the fact that you all see it as nonsensical….

You rightly see it all as nonsensical exactly because it was untrue that a son was ever claimed to be equal to his Father….. yet trinity claims this is so… hence trinity claims that Jesus WAS SAYING ‘I am God just as my Father is GOD because as the Son of God I am EQUAL to My Father … Equal to God’!’

Obviously you can see that there is no such claim made by Jesus …. So why does trinity hold to that claim?

From the Jews here…. Why are you not simply stating that THERE IS - or - THERE IS NO - such teaching in Judaism?

The way I see it, ‘Son of God’ (‘God is my Father’) merely means that Jesus is:

• ‘Doing the works of his Father’

In fact the rest of the verse has Jesus saying just that … exactly that:

• ‘If I am NOT doing the works of my Father then DO NOT believe me!’

which means:

• ‘Believe that I am the son of my Father because I am doing the works of my Father!’

Jesus did not proffer anything of equality WITH GOD! It is Trinitarians who, on seeing an exact refute by Jesus, twist the verse and claims to try to make out the belief is a realistic one…… HENCE with the insight and hindsight of the rest of the scriptures the truth of the claim is shown to be false!!

So you ARE saying that the author of John or a subsequent editor has lied about what the Jews said and believed about the equality of father and son.
Have you thought about in which ways a son might be equal to his father?

 

[David Davidovich]

The following videos may also help.

Probably not because it doesn't appear that Soapy looks at videos. Also, Ehav4Ever, Jews seems to say that if you have a question about Judaism, then ask a Jew, however, like any other religion, I would think that there would be bias in their point of view. Plus, like many Jews do, your video seemed to exclude Hellenistic influence on ancient Judaism in addition to influence from Jewish apocrypha such as the book of Enoch.

However, I find Dr. Andrew M. Henry of the ReligionForBreakfast YouTube channel to be very knowledgeable and unbiased about the topic of religion:

An educational channel dedicated to the academic, nonsectarian study of religion. We promote improving the public's religious literacy by exploring humanity's beliefs and rituals through an anthropological, sociological, and archaeological lens.

Religion for Breakfast does not endorse any particular religious tradition or non-religious perspective. Please be respectful in the comments!

The host, Dr. Andrew M. Henry, is a scholar of religious studies. His research focus is early Christianity and late Roman religion. He earned his PhD at Boston University. Follow him on Twitter @andrewmarkhenry.​

(20) ReligionForBreakfast - YouTube

Additionally, I will post the RFB video that I posted before, and I would love if you would comment on the information:

[/QUOTE]

 

[Brian2]

If I can make a suggestion. Ask people to provide you the evidence in the original language the texts were written in. i.e. ancient Hebrew. If you do that the claims that are made of a Jewish trinity are invented in translations like Greek, Latin, and English.

In ancient times the only Jews that had strange beleifs, anything close to the trinity, were considered those who do Avodah Zara and they were the exact types that all of the prophets in the Hebrew Tanakh wrote against.

Soapy does not seem to be suggesting a Jewish trinity. He just wants to know from Jews if a son can be equal to his father. If he can, in which ways can he be equal to his father.

 

[David Davidovich]

From what I listened to from your video, Ehav4Ever, you seem to either not know about or excluded the Ugarit archaeological evidence related to ancient Judaism. Could you comment on this RFB video?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In order to attempt to class Jesus Christ as being God, trinity teaching claims that the Jews are correct in claiming that Jesus, being the son of God, means that Jesus is equal to God, and therefore is God.

I cannot understand that [il]logic and also can find nothing in Jewish tradition that makes any such claim of a Son being equal to his Father.

Furthermore, trinity claims that Jesus was not ‘born’ from the Father… which further confuses the issue (pardon the pun!) since then Jesus being ‘son’ of God therefore has no meaning in terms of equality with the Father.

Can anyone give any enlightenment on where there is evidence of a Jewish tradition of a son being equal to his Father … and how Jesus, who was not a ‘birthed’ son of God could be part of this tradition.

You don't appear to understand that Jews don't believe Jesus is the son of God. So all your other arguments about this meaning Jesus was God simply don't follow.

 

[1213]

...
And that "one" means one thing, since the "one" is in the neuter case.
I would say that the one thing is one God, but that's me.

I think it is good to notice that also disciples of Jesus should be one with them.

I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
John 17:11

that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.
John 17:21