• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Trapped People

Bird123

Well-Known Member
If people of religion are locked into a set of rules from their holy books in order to be Righteous, does it make them angry when others do not follow those rules? Do they see people who do not follow as evil or being the devil?



Do they secretly desire their freedom from these rules???? Would they be brave enough to admit that???? Are they Trapped by what others think of them????
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I am a vegetarian now for religious reasons (unnecessary violence to animals) but was raised in a traditional American meat-eating way. I am many times envious when I see, think about or smell a tasty item that includes meat.

If people of religion are locked into a set of rules from their holy books in order to be Righteous, does it make them angry when others do not follow those rules?
I do not get angry, but perhaps slightly envious.
Do they see people who do not follow as evil or being the devil?
No, I see it as where they are at on their spiritual journey,

Do they secretly desire their freedom from these rules????
No, because I consciously understand why the rule is good. I understand the pleasure to me is not worth the suffering to the animals. The OP may likely be referring more to rules that seem to have no rational reason in modern society, perhaps. Any rule I follow, I understand the reason.
Would they be brave enough to admit that???? Are they Trapped by what others think of them????
I'll admit whatever but perhaps I am more thought-out than the people this may nave been directed to. I could go back to meat-eating but all things considered I prefer not to.

And a sarcastic thanks for making think about a full rack of baby-back ribs smothered with sweet sauce, like they used to serve at Bennigans (who I think went out of business without my patronage).
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
If people of religion are locked into a set of rules from their holy books in order to be Righteous, does it make them angry when others do not follow those rules? Do they see people who do not follow as evil or being the devil?



Do they secretly desire their freedom from these rules???? Would they be brave enough to admit that???? Are they Trapped by what others think of them????
That would be a sad situation to be in I think.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If people of religion are locked into a set of rules from their holy books in order to be Righteous, does it make them angry when others do not follow those rules? Do they see people who do not follow as evil or being the devil?



Do they secretly desire their freedom from these rules???? Would they be brave enough to admit that???? Are they Trapped by what others think of them????
I can only speak for myself. I do not view God's commands as restrictive but, rather, a protection against practices that may appeal to the flesh, but bring great harm to those doing them. Am I angry at people who do not follow Bible commands? No, usually not, unless they deliberately cause harm to others. Rapists, for example. Each person has the right to decide whether they will obey the true God or not. Many do not know what God's requirements are, or how they work for our good. I feel sad for them, and hope they learn the truth.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
There's a lot of evidence for people seeking a way round rules, which suggests that some at least feel trapped.

Many Christians have used a lot of ingenuity in deciding what was acceptable food in Lent, although probably more follow the rules happily.

Similarly Jews have ways to get around some Sabbath rules. The eruv is an example, where a whole urban area is marked off and declared a private domain where people can carry things in the street, which would otherwise be forbidden. Similarly, forbidden tasks can be done by a non-Jew, a shabbat goy. This doesn't seem to suggest feeling trapped, though, as the rules evaded are not actually scriptural but Talmudic interpretations.
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
If people of religion are locked into a set of rules from their holy books in order to be Righteous, does it make them angry when others do not follow those rules? Do they see people who do not follow as evil or being the devil?
Do they secretly desire their freedom from these rules???? Would they be brave enough to admit that???? Are they Trapped by what others think of them????


I don't give a flying ratts patoot what others think of me.
Most people that know be think very well of me.
Good 'nuff. I am what I am because I am what I want to be.
If some one is trapped by what others might think of them I'd recommend
psychotherapy.
Pronto, often, and long term.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I am a vegetarian now for religious reasons (unnecessary violence to animals) but was raised in a traditional American meat-eating way. I am many times envious when I see, think about or smell a tasty item that includes meat.


I do not get angry, but perhaps slightly envious.

No, I see it as where they are at on their spiritual journey,


No, because I consciously understand why the rule is good. I understand the pleasure to me is not worth the suffering to the animals. The OP may likely be referring more to rules that seem to have no rational reason in modern society, perhaps. Any rule I follow, I understand the reason.

I'll admit whatever but perhaps I am more thought-out than the people this may nave been directed to. I could go back to meat-eating but all things considered I prefer not to.

And a sarcastic thanks for making think about a full rack of baby-back ribs smothered with sweet sauce, like they used to serve at Bennigans (who I think went out of business without my patronage).

Baby-back ribs?? Let's stop that Heart up. You are probably much healthier being a vegetarian, however be very careful. Vegetarians often do not get enough protein in their diets. Let's not forget protein is essential in repairs and the immune system.

You are right. It is unforgivable how cruel animals are raised for food sources. It would not take a lot of effort to make things easier on them.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I can only speak for myself. I do not view God's commands as restrictive but, rather, a protection against practices that may appeal to the flesh, but bring great harm to those doing them. Am I angry at people who do not follow Bible commands? No, usually not, unless they deliberately cause harm to others. Rapists, for example. Each person has the right to decide whether they will obey the true God or not. Many do not know what God's requirements are, or how they work for our good. I feel sad for them, and hope they learn the truth.


I agree some people choose some hard lessons for themselves.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
There's a lot of evidence for people seeking a way round rules, which suggests that some at least feel trapped.

Many Christians have used a lot of ingenuity in deciding what was acceptable food in Lent, although probably more follow the rules happily.

Similarly Jews have ways to get around some Sabbath rules. The eruv is an example, where a whole urban area is marked off and declared a private domain where people can carry things in the street, which would otherwise be forbidden. Similarly, forbidden tasks can be done by a non-Jew, a shabbat goy. This doesn't seem to suggest feeling trapped, though, as the rules evaded are not actually scriptural but Talmudic interpretations.


Perhaps it is human nature not to want to be limited by rules. Deep down everyone wants their freedom. You are right. When the rules come, the first thing everyone does is try to figure out how to get around them.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member

I don't give a flying ratts patoot what others think of me.
Most people that know be think very well of me.
Good 'nuff. I am what I am because I am what I want to be.
If some one is trapped by what others might think of them I'd recommend
psychotherapy.
Pronto, often, and long term.

Actions through peer pressure runs deep in society. In reality, I don't think there are enough psychiatrists for everyone. Maybe we can all work at helping each other.
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
Ohhhh sure.
Sick people helping sick people.
Weeeeeelllllllllllllllllllll that ain't a bad idea really.
Works in self help 12 step groups. EXCEPT the short lived Compulsive
Sex Anonymous.
Everyone was screwing everyone else.:eek:
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I am a vegetarian now for religious reasons (unnecessary violence to animals) but was raised in a traditional American meat-eating way. I am many times envious when I see, think about or smell a tasty item that includes meat.


I do not get angry, but perhaps slightly envious.

No, I see it as where they are at on their spiritual journey,


No, because I consciously understand why the rule is good. I understand the pleasure to me is not worth the suffering to the animals. The OP may likely be referring more to rules that seem to have no rational reason in modern society, perhaps. Any rule I follow, I understand the reason.

I'll admit whatever but perhaps I am more thought-out than the people this may nave been directed to. I could go back to meat-eating but all things considered I prefer not to.

And a sarcastic thanks for making think about a full rack of baby-back ribs smothered with sweet sauce, like they used to serve at Bennigans (who I think went out of business without my patronage).
Just to make it worse for you, Smokey Bones is better.:p So are some local places within a couple of hours' drive, but I doubt you'd come here just to get a whiff. :D
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Baby-back ribs?? Let's stop that Heart up. You are probably much healthier being a vegetarian, however be very careful. Vegetarians often do not get enough protein in their diets. Let's not forget protein is essential in repairs and the immune system.

Protein is the least of our worries. B12 or iron, sure, but not protein. This has been a myth for so long now. The average American gets about 400 % of his daily protein needs. Vegetarians around 150% plus.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I can't speak for all Nichiren Buddhist, but yes.
If people of religion are locked into a set of rules from their holy books in order to be Righteous, does it make them angry when others do not follow those rules? Do they see people who do not follow as evil or being the devil?

We have a "holy book", the Lotus Sutra, but the "denomination" Nichiren ShoShu looks towards the priesthood. SGI looks towards Daisaku Ikeda (SGI President). None of them look at the original Buddha. So, yes, when someone goes outside of their circle (like I did), they have a way the former aggressive the latter subtle way of saying "this is wrong. you should do it this way."

Nichiren and The Buddha talks about devils but not in those terms. They are referring to the delusions and attachments of the mind. So, when one isn't of one mind with Shoshu or SGI, there is a discord. Unfortunately, ShoShu excommunicated SGI because they saw different opinions on who is enlightened and by whom. The view of The Buddha is completely distorted if one hasn't practiced Nichiren Buddhism and learned the suttas themselves.

Do they secretly desire their freedom from these rules???? Would they be brave enough to admit that???? Are they Trapped by what others think of them??

Maybe those born into it do. In SGI, though, it is, well, I don't know how to put it respectfully but more of a trance like state. Everyone is nice and genuine. How they relate to their practice kind of creeps me. But I didn't leave it, I just don't look to Ikeda for guidance and I study The Buddha's teachings, Lotus Sutra, and Nichiren's teachings.

I would hope that anyone who receives that type of treatment you describe would, sorry, not, be trapped. In many religions, even a Muslim told me, it's hard to admit that because it's so close nit that you really have either no say or it may cause disruption among the religious culture etc.

If you mean Christianity, I never had those feelings in Catholicism. No one told me I was going to hell; and, everyone was supportive of my spiritual development. The closest I can compare is once you take the sacrament, they are very close knit and want you to stay within the Church. I've heard stores about Christianity and people's experiences that surprise me that any Christian and denomination would do against their own teachings. However, unless indoctrinated, I'm sure some people would admit it. I haven't came across any, though.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I can't speak for all Nichiren Buddhist, but yes.


We have a "holy book", the Lotus Sutra, but the "denomination" Nichiren ShoShu looks towards the priesthood. SGI looks towards Daisaku Ikeda (SGI President). None of them look at the original Buddha. So, yes, when someone goes outside of their circle (like I did), they have a way the former aggressive the latter subtle way of saying "this is wrong. you should do it this way."

Nichiren and The Buddha talks about devils but not in those terms. They are referring to the delusions and attachments of the mind. So, when one isn't of one mind with Shoshu or SGI, there is a discord. Unfortunately, ShoShu excommunicated SGI because they saw different opinions on who is enlightened and by whom. The view of The Buddha is completely distorted if one hasn't practiced Nichiren Buddhism and learned the suttas themselves.



Maybe those born into it do. In SGI, though, it is, well, I don't know how to put it respectfully but more of a trance like state. Everyone is nice and genuine. How they relate to their practice kind of creeps me. But I didn't leave it, I just don't look to Ikeda for guidance and I study The Buddha's teachings, Lotus Sutra, and Nichiren's teachings.

I would hope that anyone who receives that type of treatment you describe would, sorry, not, be trapped. In many religions, even a Muslim told me, it's hard to admit that because it's so close nit that you really have either no say or it may cause disruption among the religious culture etc.

If you mean Christianity, I never had those feelings in Catholicism. No one told me I was going to hell; and, everyone was supportive of my spiritual development. The closest I can compare is once you take the sacrament, they are very close knit and want you to stay within the Church. I've heard stores about Christianity and people's experiences that surprise me that any Christian and denomination would do against their own teachings. However, unless indoctrinated, I'm sure some people would admit it. I haven't came across any, though.

Trance like state? How can it be based in true reality? Should not one be completely rational, awake and aware? You say everyone is nice and genuine. Do they question and interact openly or does peer pressure restrict them to their common religious view? Do you think any hide a desire to be free?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Hm.
Trance like state?
It's like Catholicism, actually. It's not negative, it's just odd for me to see. For example, in SGI the focus is 99% on Ikeda interpretation of The Dharma. It is also 100% chanting the Dharma. However, I'd say during public "worship" and at study meetings, there is probably 20% of talking about Nichiren's Writings (isolated from Ikeda's interpretation), and no conversation about the teachings of The Buddha himself.

When we chant, it is like everyone is intune with the Dharma recitation. What is different than how I see the Dharma is that it is an idol/attachment. It isn't a teaching tool but an actual object of worship to which the results from their practice are not a reflection off the item of worship, the item of worship (Rather than The Dharma itself) creates a reflection on them.

How can I say, Nichiren says everything is in the Mind. The Dharma is the Mind-The Buddha addresses the mind, what other way to reach enlightenment but through the Mind.

When I first went to Mass, this is what I thought without disrespect. It sounded like zombies or drones humming and their voice bouncing the walls in harmony with their scripture. It's not negative. It's just, well, creepy.

I chant to; and, I seem to be more aware of how the object affects me compared to what The Buddha taught about attachment. Like the Eucharist, it isn't something they can part with.

How can it be based in true reality?

The Dharma Is reality. The way we worship doesn't change The Dharma itself. The way we approach it, for some, may seem odd to me but regardless our connection, the Dharma that is on the scroll we chant to Is reality.

Reality is based on the laws of cause and affect. We take responsibility for our actions. Reality is also in part what The Buddha calls suffering in many stages and types not all negative. He also mentions that reality is isolated from attachments. What I think many Buddhist refer to as emptiness.

How it connects is, we chant to The Dharma that is written on a scroll. It's a physical representation of "the mind." Like Catholicism, Eucharist is Jesus (and so forth). Just I believe The Dharma is the truth/is reality.

Should not one be completely rational, awake and aware?

Everyone should be rational, awake, and aware. That's the point of meditation among many. Maybe some people are during chanting, I don't know. During our study meetings, it doesn't seem that way.
You say everyone is nice and genuine. Do they question and interact openly or does peer pressure restrict them to their common religious view?
We interact openly within our own beliefs. The pressue comes when I (or anyone) brings in The Buddha's teachings, opposing views on Ikeda, and, with me, decide not to, say, use Living Buddhism as a source of my spiritual knowledge. I feel it's a bit more than peer pressure. When I was practicing Catholicism, it wasn't peer pressure but more of a family helping each other out. In this case, it's more "I see the results that you have, and I want those results. I have changed this many times, and now my illnesses has been cured. I believe." It's a totally different mindset if comparing it to Christianity.

Do you think any hide a desire to be free?

Many are raised in the practice and know no other way of seeing reality. As a result, why or how can you question something that you don't have any questions about? While a few others have a more liberal approach. None of them, so far, has said they feel trapped. It is more that the Dharma (the item Gohonzon) set them free. So, basically, we are interacting with each other within the Dharma.

Personally, I don't see how I can be set free from reality. However, I wasn't raised in a religious family, so I see things a bit more universal and openly than many religious of any religion.
 

arthra

Baha'i
If people of religion are locked into a set of rules from their holy books in order to be Righteous, does it make them angry when others do not follow those rules? Do they see people who do not follow as evil or being the devil

Do they secretly desire their freedom from these rules???? Would they be brave enough to admit that???? Are they Trapped by what others think of them????

There are practices in my Faith such as not drinking alcohol...no use of illegal drugs..No sex outside marriage ... No partisanship in politics...No gambling.. , etc. these are "rules" I've adopted since becoming a Baha'i some forty years ago. I've had no desire to be "free" from these "rules" and am quite happy how my life has turned out.

So we're aware of how people live around us and we sometimes consider them unwholesome and maybe sad for them especially when it's obvious. But since we don't accept a personage like the "Devil" that is say at war with God we don't believe the people are possessed or damned as such. They have the potential to change and grow as we do...
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Do they secretly desire their freedom from these rules???? Would they be brave enough to admit that???? Are they Trapped by what others think of them????
When I was a super-Conservative Baptist, there was no desire for freedom, as it was believed we were the ones who were free while the rest of the world was enslaved to sin.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Hm.

It's like Catholicism, actually. It's not negative, it's just odd for me to see. For example, in SGI the focus is 99% on Ikeda interpretation of The Dharma. It is also 100% chanting the Dharma. However, I'd say during public "worship" and at study meetings, there is probably 20% of talking about Nichiren's Writings (isolated from Ikeda's interpretation), and no conversation about the teachings of The Buddha himself.

When we chant, it is like everyone is intune with the Dharma recitation. What is different than how I see the Dharma is that it is an idol/attachment. It isn't a teaching tool but an actual object of worship to which the results from their practice are not a reflection off the item of worship, the item of worship (Rather than The Dharma itself) creates a reflection on them.

How can I say, Nichiren says everything is in the Mind. The Dharma is the Mind-The Buddha addresses the mind, what other way to reach enlightenment but through the Mind.

When I first went to Mass, this is what I thought without disrespect. It sounded like zombies or drones humming and their voice bouncing the walls in harmony with their scripture. It's not negative. It's just, well, creepy.

I chant to; and, I seem to be more aware of how the object affects me compared to what The Buddha taught about attachment. Like the Eucharist, it isn't something they can part with.



The Dharma Is reality. The way we worship doesn't change The Dharma itself. The way we approach it, for some, may seem odd to me but regardless our connection, the Dharma that is on the scroll we chant to Is reality.

Reality is based on the laws of cause and affect. We take responsibility for our actions. Reality is also in part what The Buddha calls suffering in many stages and types not all negative. He also mentions that reality is isolated from attachments. What I think many Buddhist refer to as emptiness.

How it connects is, we chant to The Dharma that is written on a scroll. It's a physical representation of "the mind." Like Catholicism, Eucharist is Jesus (and so forth). Just I believe The Dharma is the truth/is reality.



Everyone should be rational, awake, and aware. That's the point of meditation among many. Maybe some people are during chanting, I don't know. During our study meetings, it doesn't seem that way.

We interact openly within our own beliefs. The pressue comes when I (or anyone) brings in The Buddha's teachings, opposing views on Ikeda, and, with me, decide not to, say, use Living Buddhism as a source of my spiritual knowledge. I feel it's a bit more than peer pressure. When I was practicing Catholicism, it wasn't peer pressure but more of a family helping each other out. In this case, it's more "I see the results that you have, and I want those results. I have changed this many times, and now my illnesses has been cured. I believe." It's a totally different mindset if comparing it to Christianity.



Many are raised in the practice and know no other way of seeing reality. As a result, why or how can you question something that you don't have any questions about? While a few others have a more liberal approach. None of them, so far, has said they feel trapped. It is more that the Dharma (the item Gohonzon) set them free. So, basically, we are interacting with each other within the Dharma.

Personally, I don't see how I can be set free from reality. However, I wasn't raised in a religious family, so I see things a bit more universal and openly than many religious of any religion.

Having been taught since birth is a powerful force in all religions. On the other hand, one should always reach a stage where they become more than the sum of their teachings. If one fails to do this, how can one fully express that which is special of themselves. Cookie cutter people might be the goal of some, however it is not what true reality was meant to be.

You made the comment they do not know to question. Perhaps, parents should teach their children to question everything. To question is the start on the journey to Discovery. Sure, it might be easier to raise kids that do not question but to teach kids not to question limits them from the truth and knowledge yet undiscovered. I think views should be limitless.
 
Top