Transgenderism

[Trailblazer]

I think you are on to something. Porn and sex addicts get tired of traditional porn and need more twisted to get off! That might be the next level of truth to discuss what's happening in society. I'm in a 12 step program for substance addiction and have become aware of the increase in cross addicted sex addicts going to SLAA.

*INFORMATIVE*

 

[Trailblazer]

^ This.

Winner frubal.

I'll second that.
*WINNER*

 

[Truthseeker]

You'd think todays' fundamentalists would acknowledge that history and be a bit more reluctant to start hating on yet another group, lest the same pattern repeat itself. But nope, the fundamentalist Christians just can't seem to help themselves and are now engaged in a very overt hate campaign against trans folks (the Christian Post is definitely a bigoted hate site that's rather obsessed with trans people). So I guess we'll do this again, and yet again history will not be kind to fundamentalist Christians.

That's because they engage in group think instigated by their leaders. They need to think for themselves.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I’m skeptical but agnostic overall on the neurological transgenderism claims. Would the claimed neurological markers correspond with anywhere near perfect accuracy with the genders that solidified adults identify as? I have some doubts about that.

Do I think there is a high level of social influence and imposition on gender? I am much less skeptical about that.

Because transgender identity has a subjective element and is socially influenced, even if there is neurological influence as well, trans activists are not going to be able to shut down the social influence / imposition that they don’t like. Why? Because many in society are going to have a hard time seeing how increasing gender confusion is beneficial to society.

That is the problem in my opinion. You reference a black and white idea. Whether you actually hold that idea or not, I can't tell.

 

[Ella S.]

That also sums up my past. I had nightmares of going to Hell even before I started to doubt and question. It's worst than growing up with an ultra strict parent because you can learn to hide things from the parent. You can't even hide your thoughts from Jehovah, and he's far easier to anger than please. And indeed the Bible tells us how he's backed up and supported his claim of being angry.

Me too! The fear of Hell is horrible and the worst part is that you can never be quite sure you're in the clear, because you could be in the wrong denomination or the Muslims might even be right. How do you know that your own interpretations of religious laws are the right ones when even your pastors don't seem to be able to agree on what will send you there? Even if you do know what the rules are, they often include condemnations of things completely outside of your control like having "lustful thoughts" or feeling envy or wrath.

Some Christians seem to live without the fear of Hell or God, because they seem to have this strong conviction that they're guaranteed to enter Heaven. Some of them don't even have to distort what the texts say to justify this. Instead, they will openly admit that the Bible was written from the imperfect understanding of God that men had throughout the ages, and that the wrathful interpretation of God is outdated or overstated in the Bible.

Of course, that means that their actual beliefs aren't grounded in anything more than what they feel they want to be true, maybe believing those feelings were sent to them telepathically by the "Holy Spirit." Anyone else who has the same experience is just wrong. That's a level of arrogance and irrationality I could never muster, yet it seems to be the requirement to live under Christianity without falling victim to a fear of God.

It's no surprise to me, then, that the ex-Christians who seem to struggle with the fear of Hell the most also tend to be the nicer and more rational ones.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Me too! The fear of Hell is horrible and the worst part is that you can never be quite sure you're in the clear, because you could be in the wrong denomination or the Muslims might even be right. How do you know that your own interpretations of religious laws are the right ones when even your pastors don't seem to be able to agree on what will send you there? Even if you do know what the rules are, they often include condemnations of things completely outside of your control like having "lustful thoughts" or feeling envy or wrath.

Some Christians seem to live without the fear of Hell or God, because they seem to have this strong conviction that they're guaranteed to enter Heaven. Some of them don't even have to distort what the texts say to justify this. Instead, they will openly admit that the Bible was written from the imperfect understanding of God that men had throughout the ages, and that the wrathful interpretation of God is outdated or overstated in the Bible.

Of course, that means that their actual beliefs aren't grounded in anything more than what they feel they want to be true, maybe believing those feelings were sent to them telepathically by the "Holy Spirit." Anyone else who has the same experience is just wrong. That's a level of arrogance and irrationality I could never muster, yet it seems to be the requirement to live under Christianity without falling victim to a fear of God.

It's no surprise to me, then, that the ex-Christians who seem to struggle with the fear of Hell the most also tend to be the nicer and more rational ones.

Yeah, I get it.
But since this is an international forum and we are in general religious debates, I do the following.
I accept that it is so for you, but it is not relevant to me as me for how I experience religion as me past and present.
I get that you don't want that kind of religion and neither do I, but to me that is not really the only form of religion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The fear of Hell is horrible

Truly it should be labeled as abusive and traumatic. Never sense have I known the heights and depths of fear that I did then.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Truly it should be labeled as abusive and traumatic. Never sense have I known the heights and depths of fear that I did then.

I can show you one of the non-religious versions if you like.
And explain that those ones are the ones that is my problem in my culture.
I accept that we shouldn't have the kinds of religions you have been subject to, but that is not really relevant in my culture, because the problem of a good life is different in a secular society, but not gone away just because we don't have the problems you have.

 

[Ella S.]

I agree that it’s nuanced. My position is nuanced, which is why I posted in this thread - to add nuance to an over simplified discussion.

I refuse to cede normal words just because people you dislike use them. I am not especially political. I’m very religious in a solitary way (not in a community), and I see identity and identity crisis as incredibly important.

Your position is not nuanced. It's transphobic science denialism masquerading as "just asking questions." The dog whistles you're using make that obvious, but even without them your primary arguments are anti-intellectual and you're relying heavily on a fallacious argument from ignorance.

It doesn't matter if you're "skeptical." The evidence points one way and it isn't the way you're arguing.

ETA: Maybe you're acting in good faith and just parroting thought-stopping rhetoric from your favorite conservative talking heads without an understanding of the arguments you're using. Maybe. But the result is the same.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I accept that we shouldn't have the kinds of religions you have been subject to,

I try to be careful that I don't accept Christianity as having a privilege to use terms like god and religion as interchangeable with theirs amd inherently meaning theirs.
It's religions that excuse abuse and oppression and tyranny as a part of their religion I have an issue with it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Your position is not nuanced. It's transphobic science denialism masquerading as "just asking questions." The dog whistles you're using make that obvious, but even without them your primary arguments are anti-intellectual and you're relying heavily on a fallacious argument from ignorance.

It doesn't matter if you're "skeptical." The evidence points one way and it isn't the way you're arguing.

Maybe you're acting in good faith and just parroting thought-stopping rhetoric from your favorite conservative talking heads without an understanding of the arguments you're using. Maybe. But the result is the same.

Yeah, I suspected that. But the posts are so vague in one sense that I had trouble spotting it. But yes, it is there.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I try to be careful that I don't accept Christianity as having a privilege to use terms like god and religion as interchangeable with theirs amd inherently meaning theirs.
It's religions that excuse abuse and oppression and tyranny as a part of their religion I have an issue with it.

Good, the "fun" part is that the problem is still there in a secular society, but the privilege is about other words, but the effect is the same in the end.

 

[1213]

I'm going to assume you're asking this question in good faith...

Thank you.

First and foremost, the Bible does not mention transgender people. It does show that gender and sex are different by, for instance, referring to sexless supernatural beings as male and female, but for the most part it does not delve too deeply into gender at all. To try to extrapolate a position on gender from a text that doesn't really talk about it is sort of nonsensical from the get-go. The Bible no more has a position on trans people than it does on the correct way to make a taco, because it's simply not an issue the Bible addresses at all.

Sorry, I don't understand what is the difference between "sex" and "gender", by what I see, they are the same.

Secondly, the "biological reality" is not "male and female." Biology includes a wide range of people who are intersex. There are people who are born that do not clearly fall into either category, including people who are born with both sets of primary sex characteristics (genitals).

And what is wrong with the word "intersex". Maybe there are such people, in their case "transgender" is not meaningful.

Thirdly, anatomical and chromosomal sex are not the same as gender. Gender is a facet of one's neurology, not one's anatomy or chromosomes. For instance, if someone is born with both sets of genitals but has their male genitalia removed at birth, they are then assigned female by those present and become socialized as female regardless of their biology. They will likely express themselves as female, such as by wearing female clothes. That's gender, not sex.

So, if I would change my clothes, it would change my gender? Maybe that is the reason why some were against women wearing trousers, because it changes their gender.

I think it is is interesting how few years ago it was ok for boy to play with girls toys and nothing is really boys or girls. And now, if you would use other "genders/sexes" stuff, you have suddenly changed your gender. The whole "gender" ideology seems to be based on stereotypes that were once despised.

Fourthly, trans women are often more at risk of being the victims of violence than cis women are. The post has it almost in reverse. Cis women are more of a threat to trans women than trans women are to cis women. In a broader sense, this is also the case when it comes to the rhetoric of the so-called "trans-exclusionary radical feminists" or TERFs who not only spread transphobia but incite people to act on their hatred of trans people.

I have not seen enough evidence for the claim they are more at risk of violence. But, I could understand if trans people are hated, because trans people use derogatory terms like "transphobia" instead of speaking reasonably.

Gender is not subjective. It is objective and there are ways of measuring and testing it. In fact, our modern notions of gender are required to explain certain findings in neurology, psychiatry, anthropology, and social psychology. Gender isn't something that someone can change. In fact, if that were the case, I bet many transgender people would rather be cisgender, but they can no more control their gender than they can control their natural eye color or their anatomical sex. It is just as fixed and rooted in biology.

I think the problem with that is, how to really define a gender, what it means. At this point, by what I see, it means basically different clothes.

Minors can be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, just as they can be diagnosed with ADHD, depression, anxiety, etc. This is a good thing, because it means that the suffering caused by dysphoria can be addressed in therapy early on. It also reduces the risk of suicide among LGBT youth, which is extremely high due to the social stigma they face and their inability to cope with that on top of the already miserable experience of gender dysphoria. It is not an attack on truth to take someone to therapy when they are struggling with a lack of proper coping strategies; that is plainly ridiculous.

I think it is very sad that the "cure" is to mutilate the child, because it doesn't really make any positive change. It would be better for the person to learn to live with what he/she has. If the cure for depression is not to cut brains of, why the cure for "wrong sex/gender" would be to cut of body parts?

It's secondarily absurd that the complaint about words like "male" and "female" not having any meaning anymore

Sorry, if this offends you, but what meaning they have? Many seem to have difficulties with defining what is a woman. Men are easier, because they can always be called a bigot.

Perhaps you could give a correct definition for the word woman?

completely ignores the scientifically documented truth of the existence of gender

This is difficult for me, because someone has said there are as many genders as there are humans. Because of that, I have no idea what the scientific definition for "gender" is.

At the very end, it refers to "transgenderism" as if "transgender" is some sort of ideology rather than a blunt fact about the way some people's brains are. It's like saying "I don't believe in dementiaism" ....

Maybe the problem is that the "transgender" thing looks very imaginary make belief matter. "Dementianism" is easier, because dementia is something that is not only words.

 

[Ella S.]

Thank you.

Sorry, I don't understand what is the difference between "sex" and "gender", by what I see, they are the same.

It's a common misconception, but it is not only false but impossible. Gender is neuropsychiatric whereas sex can be either anatomical or chromosomal depending on the context.

Notably, you can be born anatomically male without having XY chromosomes. You can have XY chromosomes without being born anatomically male, too. This is why the concept of "sex" itself is often considered too vague in biology. You have to specify whether you're talking about chromosomal or anatomical sex. Most of us do not know our chromosomal sex for sure, because we have not had our genes sequenced.

Gender, on the other hand, is something that exists within the nervous system and deals more with the brain and how it functions.

In most people, their anatomical sex, chromosomal sex, and gender all line up as either "male" or "female," but this is not an absolute rule and it never has been.

And what is wrong with the word "intersex". Maybe there are such people, in their case "transgender" is not meaningful.

It is quite meaningful. If you are intersex, then you are transgender if you identify as male or female. In a culture that enforces a strict social gender binary, all intersex people are forced to adopt a gender that does not align with their sex.

So, if I would change my clothes, it would change my gender? Maybe that is the reason why some were against women wearing trousers, because it changes their gender.

This makes me suspect that you are not acting in good faith, because this is not what I said. Changing your clothes changes your gender expression, but it has no impact on your actual gender. In the same way that dressing up like a metalhead does not mean that you know any metal bands or even like the music, you're expressing that you're a metalhead without being one.

Gender expression tends to follow the gender that you're socially assigned at birth which, in the case of intersex people, does not match their sex. Transgender people usually spend their early years expressing their assigned gender, not their actual gender.

I think it is is interesting how few years ago it was ok for boy to play with girls toys and nothing is really boys or girls. And now, if you would use other "genders/sexes" stuff, you have suddenly changed your gender. The whole "gender" ideology seems to be based on stereotypes that were once despised.

For starters, you cannot change your gender. It's as fixed as chromosomal sex.

Secondly, your gender has nothing to do with what toys you prefer to play with. Thinking it does only betrays your inherent sexism; it has nothing to do with gender.

I have not seen enough evidence for the claim they are more at risk of violence. But, I could understand if trans people are hated, because trans people use derogatory terms like "transphobia" instead of speaking reasonably.

What an utterly vile, inhuman perspective. It's understandable to hate them for speaking up against the hate they face? You're outright justifying hate.

I think the problem with that is, how to really define a gender, what it means. At this point, by what I see, it means basically different clothes.

That's willful ignorance on your part, which is now unsurprising given that you've revealed your own hatred for trans people. You don't actually care about gender. You just want an excuse to justify your hate.

I think it is very sad that the "cure" is to mutilate the child, because it doesn't really make any positive change. It would be better for the person to learn to live with what he/she has. If the cure for depression is not to cut brains of, why the cure for "wrong sex/gender" would be to cut of body parts?

Nobody is mutilating children. This is a complete fabrication.

Adults can undergo gender confirmation surgery as a way of resolving body-based gender dysphoria, because it's the most reliable means of resolving the dysphoria. Trying to force trans people to live against own gender does not work and is actively harmful. We've done countless medical studies on this.

Calling "surgery" mutilation is absurd, as is comparing gender confirmation surgery to lobotomy. I would explain why, but it's clear at this point that you don't actually care and you're only making the comparison to attack trans people.

Sorry, if this offends you, but what meaning they have? Many seem to have difficulties with defining what is a woman. Men are easier, because they can always be called a bigot.

Perhaps you could give a correct definition for the word woman?

A female person.

This is difficult for me, because someone has said there are as many genders as there are humans. Because of that, I have no idea what the scientific definition for "gender" is.

Do you even care? Because it seems to me like you're more concerned with reducing gender to a sexist notion of what toys children should play with and advocating against medically treating a group of people that you think is justified to hate. The truth of the matter doesn't matter to you at all.

Maybe the problem is that the "transgender" thing looks very imaginary make belief matter. "Dementianism" is easier, because dementia is something that is not only words.

Gender is also something that is not only words and we have the exact same kind of evidence from the same scientific fields (neuroscience and psychiatry) for the existence of gender as we do for dementia.

Denying the existence of gender is equally as unscientific as denying the existence of dementia. You can call it "imaginary make belief" but in doing so you will have to reject the scientific method and scientific findings as a whole, because they're what gender rests upon.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If you are intersex, then you are transgender if you identify as male or female.

Total nonsense. I've known intersex people. They were not transgender. The term is quickly becoming meaningless with almost everyone under the sun shoehorned into it. It's becoming like "people of color and white people".

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Total nonsense. I've known intersex people. They were not transgender. The term is quickly becoming meaningless with almost everyone under the sun shoehorned into it. It's becoming like "people of color and white people".

Explain more please.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Explain more please.

Intersex and transgender are two different things. Just because you're intersex doesn't mean you have dysphoria or will transition to anything. It's gender/sex dysphoria and a persistent cross-sex perception of yourself that makes you trans. But I'm old and don't appreciate the use of "transgender" as a vague umbrella term for just about everything under the sun. Now people like me, transsexuals (which is what "trans" originally meant), are thrown in with groups that have little or nothing in common with us. At this point, almost everyone is "trans" with these broad definitions of it.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Your position is not nuanced. It's transphobic science denialism masquerading as "just asking questions." The dog whistles you're using make that obvious, but even without them your primary arguments are anti-intellectual and you're relying heavily on a fallacious argument from ignorance.

It doesn't matter if you're "skeptical." The evidence points one way and it isn't the way you're arguing.

ETA: Maybe you're acting in good faith and just parroting thought-stopping rhetoric from your favorite conservative talking heads without an understanding of the arguments you're using. Maybe. But the result is the same.

You’re living in a dream world if you think the neurological markers used are going to cleanly and perfectly support the claimed identities of every trans person. What happens when someone born female with a “female brain” insists that they are male? That is definitely going to be a real life example.

You can place me in your anti category all you want in order to write off my points and feel better about yourself. Still, untruths do nobody any good in the long run especially people with gender dysphoria who are going to fall in the category that I mentioned and in which YOU deny.

 

[viole]

In light of the scriptures I think it’s clear that “transgenderism” is a satanic attack upon God’s creation of male and female, human personhood, biological reality, and truth. A phenomenon especially dangerous to women and children. I’m interested in perspectives of other Christians.


“And because of the subjectivity of gender identity, Hasson said the transgender movement poses a dire threat to women in particular.

“Gender identity is a feeling,” she explained. “It’s completely subjective — can’t test for it, can’t prove it, it’s got to be declared. “



“There's decades of literature showing overwhelming probability in a gender dysphoric minor of underlying health problems of adverse childhood experiences, bad family dynamics and a way over-representation of autism spectrum dysphoria, and that these all predate the gender dysphoria,” Van Mol explained.

According to recent data, the number of minors in America receiving a diagnosis of gender dysphoria tripled from 2017 to 2021, with more than 42,000 receiving the diagnosis in 2021. On the social media platform TikTok, which is especially popular among younger people, the hashtag “trans” has logged 50.2 billion views, nearly doubling within the space of a year.”

“So instead of saying people should seek the truth, now people say you should ‘speak your truth,” he explained. “So if words have no relation to reality, then words like ‘male’ and ‘female’ don’t matter anymore.””

“Lahl echoed that sentiment, stating her conviction — and perhaps summing up the battle itself — that transgenderism isn’t simply a political or cultural attack but one that is satanic in its origins.

“I don't believe in transgenderism,” she said. “I think that’s a lie from the devil.””

Excepts from:

'Unmasking Gender Ideology' panel warns 'women are going to lose' rights if trans ideologues win

What is a human being And what does it mean to be a human being Those were the central questions considered at The Christian Post s conference, Unmasking Gender Ideology Protecting Children, ...

www.christianpost.com

Does your God make designs that can be so easily attacked?

ciao

- viole

 

[Jose Fly]

As the same type of denomination or different? I was Baptist and have NO interest in being Baptist ever again. I, however, tried Methodist, Catholic, Episcopal, LDS, and now am Quaker.

Same type of denomination (Old German Baptist, Mennonite). Oddly enough though, she went back and forth between those and being entirely non-religious and secular.