Transgender People and Sports, what should we do?

[Callisto]

Including rallying? What if a female driver got lost and couldn't read the map? Seems unfair...

She'd ask for directions and get back on track. While a male driver would remain lost, driving aimlessly convinced he can sort it on his own.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Including rallying? What if a female driver got lost and couldn't read the map? Seems unfair...

Good luck in witness protection, my friend...

 

[leroy]

And, based on top-level marathon results, Kenyans and Ethiopians have advantages in long-distance running that most other people don't.

The mere fact that someone has an advantage doesn't make the advantage unfair.


I doubt you would be able to arrive at any "solution" without clearly expressing the "problem" you think needs to be solved. What is it?


There was a marked impact on some sports when sports leagues were desegregated. There have been marked impacts on many sports due to rule changes and technological advancements. How is this issue fundamentally different?

Yes: any change will disrupt the status quo. Why is that bad, especially when the result will be more equitable and inclusive?

Allowing people who have been systematically excluded from sport to compete may mean that these newly-included people win events that would have otherwise been won by other people; why would this be a bad thing? Please be specific.

Nobody is excluding trans

The issue is that they want to compete as women when they are biological men.

If a biological 15yo teenager /feels/claims to be a 8yo child, would you allow him to compete against other 8yo kids? Or should he compete with other 15yo teebs despite the fact that mentality he is 8yo?


My point that in stuff where biological traits are relevant biological men should be treated as such. Even if mentally they feel like women.

In 99+% of the cases trans women should/could be treated as woman , sports are just an exception because biological traits are relevant.

 

[leroy]

Just so I'm clear on what I'm inferring from your question: you're fine with trans athletes competing with their proper gender and you think they have a place in competition, but at the highest levels of competition, you think the implementation will need to consider how to prevent abuse.

Do I understand you correctly?

At high levels of competition people should participate according to their biological sex .

Low level competition ? who cares do whatever you whant . That is my view.

 

[leroy]

Well, how big a problem was it in the past?

Sex verification wasn’t done at the Olympics until 1968. Was there a flood of men pretending to be women competing before that?

So what,

Before 1968 a man disguised as a woman to participate in the Olympics would have been considered cheating........ so for the same reason a biological man participating as woman should be considered cheating.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So what,

Before 1968 a man disguised as a woman to participate in the Olympics would have been considered cheating........ so for the same reason a biological man participating as woman should be considered cheating.

You missed my point. Let me try again:

You suggested that if cis men had a way to compete as women (i.e. pretending to be trans women and using new rules that allow trans athletes), then cis men would try to dominate women's sports.

I pointed out that for most of the history of the Olympics, cis men had a way to compete as women (by pretending to be cis women, since they weren't doing any sort of sex or gender verification), but in that period, there wasn't a significant concern that cis men were dominating women's sport.

So basically, I'm asking you why you think your hypothetical scenario of cis men cheating by pretending to be trans is something likely enough that it should affect how accepting we are of trans athletes.

 

[leroy]

You missed my point. Let me try again:

You suggested that if cis men had a way to compete as women (i.e. pretending to be trans women and using new rules that allow trans athletes), then cis men would try to dominate women's sports.

I pointed out that for most of the history of the Olympics, cis men had a way to compete as women (by pretending to be cis women, since they weren't doing any sort of sex or gender verification), but in that period, there wasn't a significant concern that cis men were dominating women's sport.

So basically, I'm asking you why you think your hypothetical scenario of cis men cheating by pretending to be trans is something likely enough that it should affect how accepting we are of trans athletes.

1 Well today there are more incentives for cheating (more money more scholarships etc)

2 today its much easier, you dont even have to dress like a woman.... all you have to do is say that you feel like a woman .


This is why today we could have a flood of athletes cheating unlike before 1968

 

[Sand Dancer]

Transgender People and Sports, what should we do?

A current hot topic whithig the world of sports is “what should we do with transgender people”…….should a trans men participate as a women as or as men?

Possible solutions

1) People should participate according to their biological sex ,it doesn’t matter if you perceive yourself as a woman, if you have a testicles and a penis you should participate against other men


2) ´people should participate based on their gender, If you feel like a woman you should participate with other woman even if you have a penis….



3) Make a separate category where trans compete against each other


4) Accept the fact that sports are usually organized by private companies so simply allow them to impose their own rules, if you don’t like them then do not support those sports…. In other words we (society) have not a say….. Allow private companies to do what they what


5) Remove the binary nature of sports, no more women and men competing in separate categories, they all play against each other, in some sports woman would be favored, in other sports men would be favored,



6) More divisions: ignore sex and gender, and make more divisions divide athletes by amount of hormones, muscular mass, weight etc. or any other metric relevant for that particular sport, so regardless if you are men or women you will play against people with say a similar muscular mass than you…. … for example if a man a trans a and woman have similar muscular mass, they could participate in the same category in sports where muscular mass is relevant. … if anyone has more muscular mass than the other the he/she can´t compete in that categorty


7 some other solution?


In my opinion all these solutions have advantages and disadvantages, just wondering if you have thought about this topic and what solution would you propose?

I like #3, #5 and #6, but haven't done much studying to see which one is most practical.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Transgender People and Sports, what should we do?

A current hot topic whithig the world of sports is “what should we do with transgender people”…….should a trans men participate as a women as or as men?

Possible solutions

1) People should participate according to their biological sex ,it doesn’t matter if you perceive yourself as a woman, if you have a testicles and a penis you should participate against other men


2) ´people should participate based on their gender, If you feel like a woman you should participate with other woman even if you have a penis….



3) Make a separate category where trans compete against each other


4) Accept the fact that sports are usually organized by private companies so simply allow them to impose their own rules, if you don’t like them then do not support those sports…. In other words we (society) have not a say….. Allow private companies to do what they what


5) Remove the binary nature of sports, no more women and men competing in separate categories, they all play against each other, in some sports woman would be favored, in other sports men would be favored,



6) More divisions: ignore sex and gender, and make more divisions divide athletes by amount of hormones, muscular mass, weight etc. or any other metric relevant for that particular sport, so regardless if you are men or women you will play against people with say a similar muscular mass than you…. … for example if a man a trans a and woman have similar muscular mass, they could participate in the same category in sports where muscular mass is relevant. … if anyone has more muscular mass than the other the he/she can´t compete in that categorty


7 some other solution?


In my opinion all these solutions have advantages and disadvantages, just wondering if you have thought about this topic and what solution would you propose?

Initially, having been somewhat of a very competitively geared athlete myself, my opinion would have been to having to compete in the gender category you were born in.
There's a reason why there's women tennis and why there's men's tennis.

It's just a fact that this is about how men will usually be physically superior. I'm not sure if this was ever done, but I bet that a top 400 men player will be able to compete in the top 10 of women.

It just would not be fair to women if a transexual male would become a pro player and compete in the women's division.

However, I have never considered the idea of creating a third division just for them. Indeed, why not. In our software, people these days also expect more choices for gender then just F and M.
It's interesting to think about.

But anyway... while waiting for any such leagues to appear or whatever, imo people should compete in the gender division of their birth.
And also, off course, all the same rules would apply concerning doping etc.

So if women are taking certain medication to make them more man-ish, and this happens to make them fail doping tests.... then that would disqualify them.

It is what it is.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Ok I am about to sound ignorant, but aren’t woman better in Gymnastics, dancing, and all that kind of “artistic stuff”? (This is an honest question) I don’t know

Besides in many sports physical strength is not very important archery, tenis, soccer, base ball, golf, woman should compete with men in equality in this sports, ……….

tennis, soccer and baseball??

How is physical strength not important there?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well currently according to google the best soccer players are

Lionel Messi.

· Cristiano Ronaldo.

· Neymar.

· Robert Lewandowski.

· Kylian Mbappé

· Kevin De Bruyne.

· Virgil van Dijk.

· Sadio Mané


None of them are particularly strong, so my point is that strength is not that important

lol!

dude...

Clearly you have no clue what it takes to be a soccer player at the level of these guys.

Go watch the world cup finals of women and compare that to a regular match between the bottom half teams of say the championship in england. Or Liga 2 in spain.

A team consisting of the best women players in the world, would get obliterated by any of these "lower" men's teams.

Being short and light in weight makes it easier to do stunts , so on average women should have an advantage gymnastics, ballet, artistic skating ……..

Because those sports take advantage of the biological makeup of women.
They are naturally more "bendy". This is why you will see them more in gymnastics, ballet, etc.

As opposed to soccer and tennis and alike, where it is first very strategic (something women tend to struggle with as compared to men) and where it is also very much based on short bursts of great power. Be it for hitting a ball, kicking a ball or accelerating to top speed in just a few steps.

The strategic part is present to a lesser extent in tennis, but then the bursts of power are a lot more prevalent.

These are very "explosive" sports.

I think you confuse "physical strength" with body building type things.
Physicacl strength goes a lot further then mere muscle. It's also about stamina, agility, ability to be "explosive" in bursts. These are all things that your average male is going to be naturally better at then your average female.

This is one of the reasons, for example, why players like Serena Williams and Kim Clijsters were such "untouchables" during their prime. They had a physic that was quite uncommon for women.

And still they would fall short in men's tennis.

 

[leroy]

Initially, having been somewhat of a very competitively geared athlete myself, my opinion would have been to having to compete in the gender category you were born in.
There's a reason why there's women tennis and why there's men's tennis.

It's just a fact that this is about how men will usually be physically superior. I'm not sure if this was ever done, but I bet that a top 400 men player will be able to compete in the top 10 of women.

It just would not be fair to women if a transexual male would become a pro player and compete in the women's division.

However, I have never considered the idea of creating a third division just for them. Indeed, why not. In our software, people these days also expect more choices for gender then just F and M.
It's interesting to think about.

But anyway... while waiting for any such leagues to appear or whatever, imo people should compete in the gender division of their birth.
And also, off course, all the same rules would apply concerning doping etc.

So if women are taking certain medication to make them more man-ish, and this happens to make them fail doping tests.... then that would disqualify them.

It is what it is.

However, I have never considered the idea of creating a third division just for them. Indeed, why not. In our software, people these days also expect more choices for gender then just F and M.
It's interesting to think about.

If trans have their own beauty contests where they compete against each other, why couldn’t trans have their own Tenis Tournament?

Perhaps the problem is that perhaps there are few trans in the world that care about sports, so perhaps there wouldn’t be enough people to make interesting tournaments.

I don’t know, at the end in my opinion given that tournaments are organized by private companies in most of the cases, they should have the right to decide about their own rules and do whatever they think is best.

We (people) can decide if we like the rules or not and decide if we want to watch the game or not...........


Perhaps this shouldn’t be an issue of public/government concern.

 

[leroy]

tennis, soccer and baseball??

How is physical strength not important there?

Well the strongest players are typically not the best ones, for example Leonel Messi is currently the best soccer player and he is probably shorter and weaker than the average women athlete.

So my hypothesis is that women shouldn’t have a big disadvantage against men in sports like soccer or baseball. Except for the fact that for every women interested in soccer there are probably 1000 men interested in soccer, so statistically men should dominate the sport. But obviously I am just speculating.

 

[leroy]

lol!


Go watch the world cup finals of women and compare that to a regular match between the bottom half teams of say the championship in england. Or Liga 2 in spain.

That is an unfair comparison, woman are still in a semi amateur level, that is like comparing Brasil vs India

Obviously Brazil would easily win, but it has nothing to do with physical strength but rather it has to do that nobody cares about soccer in India in the same way nobody cares about women in soccer.
My point is that there are hundreds of variable stat determine if someone is a good soccer player or not, and only a few of these variables have to do with physical strength

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If trans have their own beauty contests where they compete against each other, why couldn’t trans have their own Tenis Tournament?

Idd. The obvious problem however is likely that there aren't enough players to make for an interesting competition. Another thing that determines the viability of a pro-circuit of such, is enough spectators. So not only should such a division find enough players... it should also appeal to the public so that they buy tickets to watch the match to generate revenue for prize money and cover costs of organization etc.

The "enough public" has been an issue for quite a long time in women soccer for example. It's only just recently that it's starting to gain some popularity. The women's final of the European Cup had quite a full stadium. That wasn't the case at all just a few years ago.

So, especially in the short term, I doubt how viable this idea is.

I don’t know, at the end in my opinion given that tournaments are organized by private companies in most of the cases, they should have the right to decide about their own rules and do whatever they think is best.

Usually there is a central organization that makes the rules and the other private organizations that organize tournaments have to abide by those central rules in order to be "recognized" as an official tournament.

If not, then it's an unofficial tournament and then it ends up being some kind of exhibit game or charity or whatever, that doesn't make the players earn points for the ATP ranking, the masters, etc. Which will have an immediate impact on plenty of players not bothering with it.

But yes, usually those central organizations are quite private.

Perhaps this shouldn’t be an issue of public/government concern.

Off course it isn't.
The recognized federation makes the rules.
And they have a lot of power.

Just look at how FIFA / UEFA reacted to when the top clubs of Europe tried to create a new "super competition". They were instantly threatened with exclusion from champions league etc. Within 24 hours, more then half of the clubs withdrew.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well the strongest players are typically not the best ones, for example Leonel Messi is currently the best soccer player and he is probably shorter and weaker than the average women athlete.

As I said in another post... you have a very narrow view of what "strong" means in sports.
You speak as if it's just about muscles. A body builder is "strong", but don't ask him to run 5 miles. He'll fall down after 2.
A marathon runner is going to be skinny.
A 100m sprinter is going to have very muscular quadriceps.
A tennis player is going to have strong calves, quadriceps and shoulders
But they won't look like body builder legs.

Messi is incredibly agile and has very strong legs. He is able to accelerate to his top speed (which is very fast!) in just a few steps. He has incredibly explosive acceleration power.

So my hypothesis is that women shouldn’t have a big disadvantage against men in sports like soccer or baseball

Your hypothesis is wrong.
As I said, take a low level team in the championship, or even lower divisions, and have them play against the top 1 women team in the world. They'll wipe the floor with them. It's very obvious if you watch the teams play.

Except for the fact that for every women interested in soccer there are probably 1000 men interested in soccer, so statistically men should dominate the sport. But obviously I am just speculating.

Yes, you are very much speculating.
Your "interest" point isn't really relevant either because the women interested in soccer will usually be women that are quite athletic.

Frail and "physically weak" women will generally not be interested in a relatively brutal contact sport like soccer. And even if they are, they'll quickly realize that it's not for them.


btw: I am a youth soccer trainer. There aren't enough girls in the club to make an all-girl team, so they play along with the boys. The difference is extremely obvious. Even at that low low level. It's somewhat balanced till the U10, U13 at the very most. After that, it's just brutal. Most girls also quite by then, realizing they simply can't compete with 15-year old boys.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That is an unfair comparison, woman are still in a semi amateur level, that is like comparing Brasil vs India

No, it's not.
Those women have been playing soccer their entire lives, just like the men.
In fact, the vast majority of them have played with men for most of their lives also, as in the youth divisions they mostly play in the same teams. All girl youth divisions are rather rare.

They are also trained by the same coaches. They have the same training rituals, the same tactics, the same exercises,... They stretch, they get massages, they take ice baths, they run, lift weights,... they get the exact same "soccer education" as everybody else.

Obviously Brazil would easily win, but it has nothing to do with physical strength but rather it has to do that nobody cares about soccer in India in the same way nobody cares about women in soccer.

That would indeed have to do with the "soccer culture" of Brazil. Kids play soccer all day long on playgrounds. Their hero's are Pele, Ronaldo, etc. A soccer culture in a country means LOTS of clubs with high quality training programs. There is no reason why Brazil men would benefit more from such a culture then women.

Go look at the rankings of national women teams. You'll see that it's pretty much comparable to men's teams.
It's not surprising that England won the European Cup. England is a very good country to get a high quality soccer education. Again, this benefits both men and women.

Now, sure, the position of women in the culture will have an impact. Suppose Saudi Arabia was a great soccer nation. They would likely not even have a women's team.

But that's missing the point. We are talking about emancipated nations here. Like England, Belgium, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc. All have strong women's divisions. None compare the the men's division.

Not because their training program is "off lesser quality", because it's the exact same program. I can guarantee this, being a youth soccer coach myself.

Like I already said in a previous post... Till U8-U9 it's pretty balanced. Then it shifts. Once you get beyond U14, it's not balanced any longer. Most girls simply can't compete with the boys at that point, with very very few exceptions. Once you go to the "elite" youth teams of first league clubs like the Manchester's, Chelsea, Barcelona, and alike... you no longer see girls in those teams. They play their own divisions. Primarily because they simply can't keep up with the boys.

It is what it is.

My point is that there are hundreds of variable stat determine if someone is a good soccer player or not,

Yes. And a very very very important one is the fitness and physic. Which happens to be a variable where the average male will always have a natural advantage of the average female.

And once you filter out the "good" soccer players from the "exceptional soccer players" (who end up in first division teams), women simply never make the cut. Primarily for biological reasons.

and only a few of these variables have to do with physical strength

These few though, have the most impact.
Your technical skill ability may be through the roof... if you don't have a strong physic, it's not going to help you. You need a strong physic for explosive bursts of short sprints, to win duels, to shoot the ball hard out of seemingly nowhere (ie, without running up to the ball allowing you to use the kinetic energy of your run to put your body weight extra hard into the kick).

Then there's the mental game, where you need to be able to make strategic decisions in a split second. In the blink of an eye, you need to see and understand everybody's position and movement and understand how that will change 2 seconds later, to perfectly time your pass or shot or what-have-you.

Here also, males have a natural biological advantage with their "hunter instinct".

Soccer as a game caters fully to typical male traits in that sense.
So it really is not surprising to see that women's teams in top divisions would have great difficulty competing with men's teams in much lower divisions.

Considering how the game is played and what it takes to execute such gameplans, it seems pretty much a given to me that that would be the result.


btw: I love women's soccer. I just don't see the point in trying to pretend that they could compete in men's leagues.

 

[leroy]

I

The "enough public" has been an issue for quite a long time in women soccer for example. It's only just recently that it's starting to gain some popularity. The women's final of the European Cup had quite a full stadium. That wasn't the case at all just a few years ago.

.

Well given that people started to care about women soccer, my hypothesis is that within 20 years woman would be capable of competing against men at the same level.

Lets see what happens

 

[leroy]

As I said


btw: I am a youth soccer trainer. There aren't enough girls in the club to make an all-girl team, so they play along with the boys. The difference is extremely obvious. Even at that low low level. It's somewhat balanced till the U10, U13 at the very most. After that, it's just brutal. Most girls also quite by then, realizing they simply can't compete with 15-year old boys.

Well perhaps 15yo men are serios about soccer and 15yo are just having fun.

When I was in primary school there where 2 girls in the soccer team and they were pretty much within the average, but then in junior high school these 2 girls simply decided that to quit and do “women stuff”

 

[leroy]

No, it's not.
Those women have been playing soccer their entire lives, just like the men.
In fact, the vast majority of them have played with men for most of their lives also, as in the youth divisions they mostly play in the same teams. All girl youth divisions are rather rare.

They are also trained by the same coaches. They have the same training rituals, the same tactics, the same exercises,... They stretch, they get massages, they take ice baths, they run, lift weights,... they get the exact same "soccer education" as everybody else.

But for every woman that cares about soccer, there are 1000 men that care about soccer, so obviously it’s much easier to find 11 males that can play than 11 woman.

There are differences between white and black people in terms of hight, physical strength, speed, etc. (on average blacks are better than whites) but this differences are not that relevant such that whites are unable to play soccer against blacks, so the same should apply to woman




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