Transgender People and Sports, what should we do?

[Subduction Zone]

This is why I'd call them protected/open categories, this kind of inane bigoteering is so tiresome.

True. There are some sports where a transwoman would have an unfair advantage if she went through puberty before transitioning. Combat sports are one such example. There is no one easy answer for all sports.

An avid sports enthusiast will not accept an biological edge that others cannot have. There are some that see sports as just a social event, but you can be very sure none of them were anywhere near being top notch competitors. If one cuts off transwomen when does one do so? If one allows them how long must they be on testosterone blockers and how strong do they need to be?

I think that what we will see is a mixed solution eventually where there may be a cutoff point in competition.

 

[leroy]

It seems unfair because you don't see trans women as women.

No, I see trans woman as a biological man that has the “mind” of a woman (or a woman in a man’s body)… they are not real woman in my opinion, this is not meant to be denigrating , it´s just the way things are.

I really don't see your objection as different from bemoaning the "missed opportunity" that a white athlete lost out on because of the end of segregation.

To me it´s more like being completely “normal” but claiming to be handicapped so that you can compete in the Paralympic games against people that have no arms in swimming competitions.

 

[leroy]

With the current system it is not that easy. One would have to undergo hormone therapy for at least a year to participate on a college level and for at least two years to participate on an Olympic level. Very few fakes are willing to take that sort of sacrifice.

undergo hormone therapy

Thanks, that changes everything.

So a biological man can’t participate in any professional sports as a woman without hormone therapy?


This seems to open the door to new problems, but thanks for the date I didn’t know that

 

[Subduction Zone]

It seems unfair because you don't see trans women as women.

I really don't see your objection as different from bemoaning the "missed opportunity" that a white athlete lost out on because of the end of segregation.

Sexual dimorphism is a real thing. A transwoman that transitions after puberty will have some advantages in many sports that ciswomen do not have. Hormone blocking therapy only levels the field for some events, but not for all.

Now I think that the idea of someone cheating by calling himself a woman when he is not trans is ludicrous. At the Olympic level that is at least two years of hormone blocking treatments before one can even compete. There are very few people that desperate and that good.

I cannot see us arriving at a solution that will satisfy everyone with our current medical knowledge.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Thanks, that changes everything.

So a biological man can’t participate in any professional sports as a woman without hormone therapy?


This seems to open the door to new problems, but thanks for the date I didn’t know that

You could quickly find this out for yourself. The NCAA current standard is one year. The transwoman swimmer that caused this to be a national story waited the year during Covid lockdowns on therapy. It may not have been long enough. Or it may never be enough since upper body strength in men is largely acquired during puberty. She was slower than when she was competing as a man before undergoing hormone blocking therapy, but still faster than almost all of the ciswomen. He was a good swimmer, but not a national competitor before the transition.

I have heard that in running sports that two years of hormone blocking therapy does seem to level the playing field. But combat sports and weight lifting may never be fair. Swimming uses a lot of upper body strength too. The final answer may vary depending upon the sport that one is in.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don’t have a view on this topic, this is why I made the op,

But the questions about implementation details generally come after everyone agrees in principle "yes, this should be implemented."

It´s an honest question……… how do you prevent abuse? What prevents a biological man to simply lie, declare himself a woman, and play in sports as a woman just to get a better rank? .. literaly it seems to me that a man can declare himself a woman / play the tournament against other woman / win a medal / and declare himself a man once the tournament is over.

Well, how big a problem was it in the past?

Sex verification wasn’t done at the Olympics until 1968. Was there a flood of men pretending to be women competing before that?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

How would that even work? It's both completely unmanageable as you can't quantify these things accurately, and seeing as most sports don't have divisions anyway, would ruin the spectacle of most sports.

10 football world cups, 10 NFLs, 10 100m finals, 10 Wimbledon finals, etc.

As if sports statistics aren't already complex and people don't put a lot of time and effort into the mathematics involved in it...

I would imagine that even if some of the traditional divisions exist, seeing athletes compete against each other based on abilities and not gender would be exciting to watch. I also imagine the sports math geeks would be all over it...

 

[Twilight Hue]

Let's not forget that money is in the equation.

Nobody in sports is going to sign up a weaker less stronger player for millions of dollars via contract.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

3) Make a separate category where trans compete against each other

This is the best, most equitable option given.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The variables are many, and specific to each sport. So there isn't going to be any one easy solution.

Exactly right.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

How is it doing away with women's sports?

I meant get rid of seperate sexed sports. And have everyone play coed. Is that really that big of a deal?

It's a huge deal. Completely changes sports at a fundamental level. I've played coed sports as an adult...it's completely different, and they have rules within them around how many men on the field,not where men can run to, else they'd be male-dominated.

(I'm talking basketball and netball here)

Other sports, where such rules aren't required, are sometimes already co-ed.
Car racing, horse riding, etc.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Trans men are part of the diversity of men; trans women are part of the diversity of women.

If a trans athlete has a performance advantage in a particular sport, this is no different from the cis athletes who are born extra tall, or generate less lactic acid than other athletes.

In sports where genders compete separately, trans people should compete with their gender.

Gender lines are arbitrary in terms of sports organisation.
But if they were removed, there'd be a marked impact on some sports. I coach basketball, and girls can only compete at the younger levels on anything remotely like a fair basis, because height is so impactful.

Allowing transgender athletes to compete isn't only about strength or speed advantages, which might somewhat mitigate over time.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sexual dimorphism is a real thing. A transwoman that transitions after puberty will have some advantages in many sports that ciswomen do not have. Hormone blocking therapy only levels the field for some events, but not for all.

And, based on top-level marathon results, Kenyans and Ethiopians have advantages in long-distance running that most other people don't.

The mere fact that someone has an advantage doesn't make the advantage unfair.

Now I think that the idea of someone cheating by calling himself a woman when he is not trans is ludicrous. At the Olympic level that is at least two years of hormone blocking treatments before one can even compete. There are very few people that desperate and that good.

I cannot see us arriving at a solution that will satisfy everyone with our current medical knowledge.

I doubt you would be able to arrive at any "solution" without clearly expressing the "problem" you think needs to be solved. What is it?

Gender lines are arbitrary in terms of sports organisation.
But if they were removed, there'd be a marked impact on some sports.

There was a marked impact on some sports when sports leagues were desegregated. There have been marked impacts on many sports due to rule changes and technological advancements. How is this issue fundamentally different?

Yes: any change will disrupt the status quo. Why is that bad, especially when the result will be more equitable and inclusive?

Allowing people who have been systematically excluded from sport to compete may mean that these newly-included people win events that would have otherwise been won by other people; why would this be a bad thing? Please be specific.

 

[Callisto]

Preference: #1 with #3

Men and women's divisions provide even playing fields, the addition of #3 would be an equitable continuation of that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And, based on top-level marathon results, Kenyans and Ethiopians have advantages in long-distance running that most other people don't.

The mere fact that someone has an advantage doesn't make the advantage unfair.


I doubt you would be able to arrive at any "solution" without clearly expressing the "problem" you think needs to be solved. What is it?


There was a marked impact on some sports when sports leagues were desegregated. There have been marked impacts on many sports due to rule changes and technological advancements. How is this issue fundamentally different?

Yes: any change will disrupt the status quo. Why is that bad, especially when the result will be more equitable and inclusive?

Allowing people who have been systematically excluded from sport to compete may mean that these newly-included people win events that would have otherwise been won by other people; why would this be a bad thing? Please be specific.

It will be seen as unfair by many. Especially when the science does not quite match the claims of those advocating for trans athletes.

Some sports, such as basketball, can be heavily influenced by one player. Sexual dimorphism can be too large to field a fair team in opposition to a team with a star center that is a foot above everyone else and more than disproportionately stronger due to starting out male. It could have a negative effect on participation. That is why we have girls and boys teams. If we had mixed teams with no special rules saying you have to have half girls playing time wise, it would quickly all become just boys basketball.

Those that do not follow or practice sports do not realize how important winning is. It is why one does sports in the first place. If one sees what looks like an uneven playing field it will be detrimental to the numbers.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It will be seen as unfair by many.

Desegregating professional sports was also seen as unfair by many.

Especially when the science does not quite match the claims of those advocating for trans athletes.

What science? The question of how we define gender is more philosophy, not science.

Some sports, such as basketball, can be heavily influenced by one player. Sexual dimorphism can be too large to field a fair team in opposition to a team with a star center that is a foot above everyone else and more than disproportionately stronger due to starting out male. It could have a negative effect on participation. That is why we have girls and boys teams. If we had mixed teams with no special rules saying you have to have half girls playing time wise, it would quickly all become just boys basketball.

This sounds a lot like the concerns when the NBA was desegregated that it would mean no white players.

Those that do not follow or practice sports do not realize how important winning is. It is why one does sports in the first place. If one sees what looks like an uneven playing field it will be detrimental to the numbers.

Is that your concern? Fairness? Evening the playing field?

Because if that really is your concern, even if we take everything you're saying as given, the question of how trans athletes should be treated is a rounding error on a problem that's dominated much more by, for instance, disparities in access to resources and training.

 

[Augustus]

As if sports statistics aren't already complex and people don't put a lot of time and effort into the mathematics involved in it...

Some do, the average fan doesn't.

If you mean for identifying "size and strength classes" there is no way to measure muscle mass accurately, and even with the same muscle mass this doesn't mean equity as men are still more explosive die to differences in muscle composition.

And at the recreational level it would be ludicrously unrealistic.

I would imagine that even if some of the traditional divisions exist, seeing athletes compete against each other based on abilities and not gender would be exciting to watch. I also imagine the sports math geeks would be all over it...

I guess you aren't much of a sports fan then...

In football, Manchester United get 70,000 fans at every game. Man Utd reserves, u-18, u-15 etc. get basically none.

People don't want to watch 10 different levels of football with the fans split between different games and not enough time to follow all of them.

Not to mention you would need to build many new stadiums so your 10 teams could all play every week.

Tennis grand slam events would be unworkable as it is hard to schedule the events as it is, never mid if you played 5 times the number of games. People just want to see who is best, not some artificial division system that means many of the best don't even play each other.

Other than combat sports, few sports with weight divisions are even popular.Sports like Rugby and American Football are partly fun because of the size differences between players giving them different attributes.

 

[Augustus]

Sex verification wasn’t done at the Olympics until 1968. Was there a flood of men pretending to be women competing before that?

If you allow pure self-ID then obviously men will pretend to be trans so they can win millions of dollars.

If you put some limit on who can compete as a woman, like 2 years of hormone therapy, then, according to your logic, you are the same as the racists and segregationist and just think that trans women are "men in dresses".

If we need to put some limits in place in the name of fairness, then the question is where to draw the line. There isn't some arbitrary point on this line that makes you a bigot and the moral equivalent of racial segregationists.

If there is no line at all, professional woman's sport will be dominated by men on the grift (not transwomen).

 

[Augustus]

True. There are some sports where a transwoman would have an unfair advantage if she went through puberty before transitioning. Combat sports are one such example. There is no one easy answer for all sports.

In any sport where men have an advantage over women, transwomen retain that advantage even after years of hormone therapy.

Increasing numbers of studies are showing the advantage remains.

There is also the problem that testing average athletes in studies is not the same as testing elite athletes.

A study on amateur cyclists showed "EPO doesn't work" leading to some idiot scientist claiming that Lance Armstrong lost his TDFs for nothing.

EPO obviously worked and we have unequivocal real world data to show this (not to mention the anecdotal evidence from those who took it while measuring their performance).

Elite athletes don't respond in the same way, they are not normal.

Even if you could test elite trans athletes, they have an incentive to underperform. Have actually seen some evidence based on split-timing that the swimmer Lia Thomas is sandbagging in her races to make her advantage less ludicrous.

Sub elite men can easily become elite women after transition.

Unless we can clearly demonstrate otherwise, we should assume the advantage remains imo.

 

[Secret Chief]

Car racing

Including rallying? What if a female driver got lost and couldn't read the map? Seems unfair...