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Training men and boys to honor women in the age of #MeToo

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Epic Beard Man, May 17, 2018.

  1. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Veteran Member
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    People aren't like cars and saying that one gender needs to be 'the leader' makes no more sense than saying one race needs to be. To say that only white people should be 'first in command' and other races should be 'second in command' can be clearly identified as racism. To do the same of sexes or genders is sexism.

    There are no gender roles that aren't artificial impositions without justification (including religious ones). Because roles in relationship, company or other organization should be based on the merit of the individual, not what's between their legs, or the color of their skin.
     
    #41 ADigitalArtist, May 18, 2018
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  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No one said that people are like cars. Gender roles are clearly defined in every culture. It isn't a matter of superiority but of function. Each role is equally important, but as with the company analogy, someone has to be the CEO. Someone has to be the decision maker....otherwise the company's function would be compromised...even crippled.

    This is clearly a problem in your mind.....but genderism is a relatively new concept in today's world. Gender equality has only become an issue because of pay issues in the workplace. I agree that an equal role should qualify for equal pay...but we aren't really talking about that kind of equality.

    We are talking about 'family' and the role that parents play in that 'organization'. It is clear that males and females are not born equal in many ways. Gender is indicated in a child's demeanor and choices from an early age. Males mature slower than females and are physically stronger. Their approach to problem solving is different and their emotional make-up is poles apart generally speaking. (ask any man)

    Gender roles in a family are designed to complement one another, not compete with each other.

    In Genesis the woman's role was complementary to the man's.....meaning that if they worked as a team, both contributed to the family's well being in many different ways. When the gender roles became confused, that is when I believe that families started to disintegrate. Just like a company would if it had too many decision makers who all had equal say about how the company conducts its business. The conflicts would detract from what the aims of the company were all about.Instructions to the workers would be confusing and productivity would suffer.

    But gender roles are demonstrated in just about every culture. Some are an awful abuse of male domination but that is what is man made. God never defined the roles of men and women as a domination of any sort. The male was head of the family, but it was not to be exercised in a dictatorial manner. Jesus likened it to his role as "head of the Congregation"...it was to be exercised with strength but always tempered with love and compassion. A wife was not a chattel but a valued member of the team which would in turn teach by example to the children born into that family what each role contributes. What are children taught today? Do most of them even know what a real family looks like?
    Are they exposed to confused gender roles and even in the school system are taught to question their sexuality?
    Is this producing well balanced kids? Not that I can see.

    And that is where I believe your argument falters. In today's world it is taught that gender roles and racial background should be equal and to a great degree that is fine in business...but when it comes to marriage and family...that is God's arrangement. He set the rules and if followed, it is our experience that it works well. It mitigates friction and helps to solve problems through consultation and a spirit of compromise to achieve the best solution in an amicable way. If both parties see this as their goal, then solutions are achievable and peace is preserved. No one thrives in a conflicted family.

    In that arrangement, there can be no competition, which becomes the basis for friction. A person in business who steps outside of their assigned role and tries to force themselves into a position for which they are not qualified, usually ends up out of a job altogether...why? Because their attitude infects the whole company negatively. The family arrangement is really no different in the outcome.
     
  3. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Veteran Member
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    Speak for yourself. I've been happily in the same relationship with my husband nearing two decades and neither of us rely on constructs of who should be performing y task in the relationship. We complement eachother by playing to our strengths, not our gonads. And for me that's organizing the finances, organizing long term family goals, working the physical job (I am physically stronger than he is). For him, he does a lot of the household chores, is the caregiver, cooks most evenings. We split cleaning and we both work. We've never had a serious fight, let alone disintegrated.
    Meanwhile I've seen plenty of marriages break down because women or men were forced by preconceived notions of 'what men/women aught to be doing' and feeling trapped and useless trying to fulfill those artificially imposed roles.

    There is no credible evidence that there are ideal tasks suited to women or men as a whole, including caregiving, physical labor, planning and leading. Everyone is different and relationships should be organized accordingly.
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You do understand that I am speaking generally....why do you guys always jump to the conclusion that I am speaking about you personally? If you have a system that is working for you, then well done.....most people don't.

    It isn't the roles that are artificially produced, but the definition they are given by individuals, influenced by culture or religion. In a relationship where a man is head of a dictatorship, of course women are going to chafe. In a situation where people can come to an agreed sharing of the responsibilities and it works....good job.

    This again is generally speaking. No one is suggesting that "caregiving, physical labor, planning and leading" are in and of themselves gender specific.....there is the definition of the capable wife in Proverbs 31:10-31....

    "Who can find a capable wife?

    Her value is far more than that of corals.


    11 Her husband trusts her from his heart,

    And he lacks nothing of value.


    12 She rewards him with good, not bad,

    All the days of her life.


    13 She obtains wool and linen;

    She delights to work with her hands.


    14 She is like the ships of a merchant,

    Bringing her food in from afar


    15 She also rises while it is still night,

    Providing food for her household

    And portions for her female servants.


    16 She sets her mind on a field and buys it;

    She plants a vineyard from her own labors.


    17 She prepares herself for hard work,

    And she strengthens her arms.


    18 She sees that her trading is profitable;

    Her lamp does not go out at night.


    19 Her hands seize the distaff,

    And her hands take hold of the spindle


    20 She extends her palm to the lowly one,

    And she opens her hands to the poor.


    21 She does not worry about her household because of the snow,

    For her whole household is clothed in warm garments.


    22 She makes her own bed covers.


    Her clothing is of linen and purple wool.


    23 Her husband is well-known in the city gates,

    Where he sits among the elders of the land.


    24 She makes and sells linen garments

    And supplies belts to the merchants.


    25 She is clothed with strength and splendor,

    And she looks to the future with confidence.


    26 She opens her mouth in wisdom;

    The law of kindness is on her tongue.


    27 She watches over the activity of her household,

    And the bread of laziness she does not eat.


    28 Her children rise up and declare her happy;

    Her husband rises up and praises her.


    29 There are many capable women,

    But you—you surpass them all.


    30 Charm may be false, and beauty may be fleeting,

    But the woman who fears Jehovah will be praised.


    31 Give her the reward for what she does,

    And let her works praise her in the city gates."


    This is a woman most certainly not defined simply by gender specific roles. But this woman is an asset to her husband and to her whole family and community. Is there something objectionable about that? :shrug:
     
  5. Deidre

    Deidre Well-Known Member

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    You think that women who are raped are responsible for it? So if you walk down the street carrying a huge wad of cash for all to see...if you’re physically assaulted and robbed, would you blame yourself for “tempting” the criminals?

    You are why #metoo exists.
     
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  6. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    As Christians we must have the courage to admit that some Pauline precepts polluted Christianity.
    Paul did write things that offend woman's dignity...it's not absolutely his fault because his cultural background was too sexist, clashing with the dissolute Greek society.

    Paul acted in good faith...his goal was to convince Corinthians to abandon their immoral lifestyle ...just think that the verb Korinthiazo, Κορινθιάζο meant "sleeping around with anyone".
    But this doesn't mean that women must cover themselves not to turn men on...that's absurd.
     
    #46 Estro Felino, May 18, 2018
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Is that what I said? I see a knee jerk here. [​IMG]

    What I am saying is, if you deliberately put yourself in harm's way (when you didn't have to) and the worst happens, you have to take some of the responsibility yourself. So yes, if you walked down the street carrying a huge wad of cash for all to see, a thief is going to wait for an opportunity to part you from it...even kill you for it. Why would that be surprising? If you concealed it, that would be taking a precaution...if you made sure that the wad of cash reached its destination in an armored car...that would be even better.

    If you were robbed and the police came and questioned you about the robbery, what do you think they would say about the fact that you flashed it for all to see? He would issue you with this sign.... [​IMG]

    No, I'm not. Take any sporting event and tell me why there are scantily clad women cavorting on the field or posing with racing drivers and then tell me who is responsible for "#MeToo". Women teach men not to respect them.
    Why do women pole dance in clubs and why do others become strippers? They become sex objects instead of human beings because of the way they behave. To some men, that is all they will ever be good for.

    Why is it only now that "#MeToo" is speaking up? Wasn't this practice going on for decades?

    Isn't this simply an issue of the abuse of power? Rape is not a sexual act, it is an act of domination.

    Men have been abusing power over women for thousands of years. All of a sudden now, in the entertainment industry, they are not getting away with it. Careers are in tatters. Men are having nervous breakdowns after being outed. Their livelihoods are threatened.

    Now the thing that makes no sense to me is that the moral standards of the western world have dropped so low, and yet amid all this immorality is the voice of women saying that they have the right to behave like whores, but don't you men dare take advantage of that? [​IMG]

    The young woman that I mentioned in my first post deliberately put herself in harm's way and will reap the consequences of that for the rest of her life. Wouldn't it have been better to weigh up the possibilities and make wiser choice of location and activities for the evening than to reap a lifetime of regret?

    All I can do is shake my head...I just don't get it. [​IMG] If you lived in a perfect world, I could understand....but this world is so far from perfect. "Cut your garment to fit your cloth" is a wise old saying. Trim your behavior to fit this world and the horrible people in it. To do otherwise is just stupidity. There is no cure for stupid.
     
  8. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Veteran Member
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    If you don't deal in absolutes and women are valued for strength and merit, including leadership, and that there are no ideal gender norms for individules... go petition your congregation for a female elder.
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes, Paul simply stated what was accepted practice in the day. It was not a time when women were noted for their intellect or their schooling, which was pretty much non existent in male dominated Jewish society. But Paul did not say anything that is not backed up by Jesus' teachings. I think he is taken out of context and his words placed in this present climate...that would be insulting. However, I believe that he is right in principle. Some may disagree.

    “Nowhere in the ancient Mediterranean or Near East were women accorded the freedom that they enjoy in modern Western society. The general pattern was one of subordination of women to men, just as slaves were subordinate to the free, and young to old. . . . Male children were more highly esteemed than female, and baby girls were sometimes left to die by exposure.” That is how one Bible dictionary describes the lot of women in ancient times.

    The situation is not much better in many parts of the world today. In 1994, for the first time, the U.S. State Department’s annual human rights report focused on the treatment of women. “Data on 193 Countries Show Day-to-Day Discrimination Is a Fact of Existence,” stated a New York Times heading regarding the report."


    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1995523?q=women&p=par

    Imagine! Not until 1994 was there a focus on the treatment of women in America. And not until 20017 did "#MeToo" come to the fore. Strongly entrenched ideas take a long time to dispel.

    Jesus did not discriminate between males and females when it came to Christianity, but neither did he correct the place of women in the Jewish system at that time. He simply led by example. He gave women the respect that we would expect as a representative of his Father. But the 'headship' arrangement still stood because it was God's way to establish and maintain harmony in the family unit. That company had only one "CEO". There was no dictatorship, but headship was exercised as a way to problem solve and to come to a consensus where all in the family benefited. Love was to dominate this arrangement, not power.

    I believe that it is important to make that distinction.
     
    #49 Deeje, May 18, 2018
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I don't know of any women who want that job quite frankly. We are content to be the backup. We like to be the support system because who wants the responsibility of a whole congregation of problems? That is why we have a body of elders to share the load. We have enough just coping with our own families and the inherent problems that come with living in a world alienated from the Creator and his standards.

    We have a full share in our meetings and in our ministry,....we enjoy being teachers, so we are not deprived in any way. If Jesus said that females should be elders, then by all means we would be for it....but he did not and I personally have no such aspirations....I just want to be acceptable to the judge come the judgment, having done what was asked of me as an individual Christian. You guys create problems that don't really exist for us.
     
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  11. Deidre

    Deidre Well-Known Member

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    I don't liken this though to ...say someone who drives drunk and gets killed in an auto accident. That is a direct ''reaping what you sow'' kind of transaction. But, if a woman walks into a bar dressed sexy...this shouldn't cause men to follow her out to her car and rape her...and somehow, this is her fault. I do believe that everyone should be responsible for themselves. I don't think men should be responsible for women's choices, but they must be responsible for their own. To compare most men to ''dogs,'' is saying that they're simply not capable of being responsible. That's not true. Rape and sexual assault also isn't about sexual gratification as much as it is about power and berating women. Most rapists hate women, and overpowering them is the turn on. You seem to think that any man...at any time...will resort to that behavior if he spots a sexy woman. That's not true, and you don't know much about sexual assault if you think that's true. The men who are being highlighted in the #metoo scandals are all powerful men who took advantage of their positions. I don't think it had as much to do with sex, and women being ''tempting,'' as it did for those men exercising their power, as they are incredibly narcissistic and insecure.

    I understand where you're coming from, but understand how it comes across to us. lol
     
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  12. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Veteran Member
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    I do. I know several women who would have been capable elders, including an older woman who helped raise me. A single mom who also daycared for 12 kids at a time. She was capable, confident, fair, and most of the congregation already turned to her for guidance anyway. But she would never be able to take that role, and not because she wouldn't have taken it. And not because she was 'content to take an assisting role.' She died of cancer eight years ago as an elder in all but name. But she was one to me.

    I also know a full time pioneer that would have made a better elder than her husband, who was one. But that's a story for another time.

    So long as leadership roles is gatekeeped by what's between your legs, either in assumptions about women 'in general' or in your own backyard, the community will be weaker for it. Families don't need a dress wearing domestic housewife unless that's what she wants to do. And not everyone does or should.
     
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  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    'Reaping what you sow' has many definitions and it is my belief from the Bible, that modesty is the recommended form of dress for a reason. Just as there is a reason why hookers dress the way they do. Our appearance tells others a lot about us without a word being spoken. If we don't want to convey the wrong message then we should make sure that the way we dress can't be misinterpreted.

    Again, why is she dressed "sexy" in the first place? Doesn't it signify that she wants male sexual attention? If that attention goes past where it is asked for, a woman is entitled to call a halt, but oftentimes that isn't enough for some men. It might be that there are men who can turn themselves off....but not all want to. They figure if you advertise your body that way that you must want what they figure you are asking for. No one said that is not their fault...but it is what happens a lot in date rape.

    Of course, no one is saying any different....and I am not excusing anyone from accepting personal responsibility for their actions....but the world is full of people who are not nice and who have no interest in anyone but themselves.We can't live like they don't exist.

    I did not compare most men to dogs at all. I simply quoted an Imam as saying that 'if you don't want a dog to eat, don't offer him meat'. The principle is still true regardless of how crass it sounds.

    Its not hard to figure out that in order to prevent crime happening to you, the sensible thing to do is to evaluate your own behavior and eliminate the ways that may invite it....not flashing your money....not flashing your body....not flashing your jewellery....not putting temptation in anyone's path and then having to lament about it being exploited by the criminals of this world. Rapists are criminals.

    Of course and I have said as much. This is a act of dominance and power....the most corrupting element in our society. What they did was blackmail women into submission. What a horrid abuse of power!

    I wish people would really read my posts before misinterpreting them. [​IMG] There are slain strawmen all over the place here.
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    We are actually encouraged to go to the older women in the congregation because of their age and experience in life. While not teaching publicly at meetings, women, especially the older ones, have always taught on a private level.

    In his letter to Titus, the apostle Paul stated: “Let the aged women be.....teachers of what is good; that they may recall the young women to their senses to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sound in mind, chaste, workers at home, good, subjecting themselves to their own husbands, so that the word of God may not be spoken of abusively.” (Titus 2:3-5) By helping younger women to appreciate their responsibilities as Christian wives and mothers, the aged women performed a valuable service for the congregation. Through such teaching, younger women came to appreciate how wrong it was to gad about to the homes of others, to gossip and to meddle in other people’s affairs.

    We could all cite exceptions to any norm, but I speak in generalities as I said before. I personally do not know any woman in any congregation that I have attended in 45 years as a Witness, who wanted to be an elder. As I said, we have a full share in our Christian activities so none of us feel deprived. We don't envy the men who shepherd us. They have a heavy responsibility.

    Well in my experience, none of the Witness women I have known were mere dress wearers. Nor were they treated as domestic housewives...they see their role as God assigned it...a complement to the role of husband and father.....and their families were the stronger for it. That is from the inside looking out. Its not the same as misinterpretation from the outside making criticisms about the way things appear. Appearances can be deceptive.
     
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  15. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Veteran Member
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    I wasn't outside. I know the exceptions, and they weren't uncommon. And I know those who felt forced into a domestic life they didn't want or need. And I know those who would have made fine shepards and never got the chance to because of reasons that had nothing to do with envy, unable or unwanting responsibility.

    But, it's late here. I don't want to repeat myself more. Goodnight.
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I am assuming that you weren't really "inside" either. I am wondering how extensive your association was and how long ago you disassociated? In 45 years I have been in many congregations and associated with many more. I cannot ever remember coming across a single sister who wanted to be an elder. Even if I was a man I would hesitate....

    No one is forced into marriage or domesticity.....that is a choice. And a life of singleness is even encouraged for those who can achieve it. Marriage brings its own complications.

    I also know women who would have made fine shepherds, but their talents are used and appreciated elsewhere.

    I like the illustration that the Bible uses regarding the body.

    1 Corinthians 12:12-21..."For just as the body is one and has many organs, but all the organs of the body, many as they are, are one body, so it is with the Christ....
    For neither is the body one organ, but many. 15 If the foot says “Because I am not a hand I am no part of the body” it is not on that account no part of the body, 16 and if the ear says “Because I am not an eye I am no part of the body” it is not on that account no part of the body. 17 If the body were wholly eye, where would be the hearing? if wholly ear, where the smelling? 18 But now God did put the organs each one of them in the body as he chose; 19 and if all were one organ, where would be the body? 20 but now there are many organs but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand “I have no need of you,” or again the head to the feet “I have no need of you”.


    We each have our place in God's arrangement and the hand does not envy the foot, nor does the nose envy the ears. [​IMG]
     
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