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Featured Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Yahcubs777, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    Proverbs 22:6

    6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

    1 kings
    10 And when the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon concerning the name of the Lord, she came to prove him with hard questions.

    2 And she came to Jerusalem with a very great train, with camels that bare spices, and very much gold, and precious stones: and when she was come to Solomon, she communed with him of all that was in her heart.

    3 And Solomon told her all her questions: there was not any thing hid from the king, which he told her not.

    4 And when the queen of Sheba had seen all Solomon's wisdom, and the house that he had built,

    5 And the meat of his table, and the sitting of his servants, and the attendance of his ministers, and their apparel, and his cupbearers, and his ascent by which he went up unto the house of the Lord; there was no more spirit in her.

    6 And she said to the king, It was a true report that I heard in mine own land of thy acts and of thy wisdom.

    7 Howbeit I believed not the words, until I came, and mine eyes had seen it: and, behold, the half was not told me: thy wisdom and prosperity exceedeth the fame which I heard.

    8 Happy are thy men, happy are these thy servants, which stand continually before thee, and that hear thy wisdom.

    9 Blessed be the Lord thy God, which delighted in thee, to set thee on the throne of Israel: because the Lord loved Israel for ever, therefore made he thee king, to do judgment and justice.

    10 And she gave the king an hundred and twenty talents of gold, and of spices very great store, and precious stones: there came no more such abundance of spices as these which the queen of Sheba gave to king Solomon.

    11 And the navy also of Hiram, that brought gold from Ophir, brought in from Ophir great plenty of almug trees, and precious stones.

    12 And the king made of the almug trees pillars for the house of the Lord, and for the king's house, harps also and psalteries for singers: there came no such almug trees, nor were seen unto this day.

    13 And king Solomon gave unto the queen of Sheba all her desire, whatsoever she asked, beside that which Solomon gave her of his royal bounty. So she turned and went to her own country, she and her servants.

    14 Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,


    In Luke it is written

    Luke 11
    “The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”

    Ive posted three different passages here.

    The first is a verse n Proverbs, who the words of Proverbs is believed to be Solomon.
    The second is the event where the queen of Sheba came to see him for herself.
    The third is the passage where Jesus His Pre-Eminence reveals HE is greater than that solomon.

    Now here is the question to discuss in the thread.

    Is Proverbs 22:6 true? If it is true, then how do you explain that Solomon, who was given wisdom by the GOD, trained by the GOD, departed from the ways of GOD as he grew older?


     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Solomon was the wisest of his generation because he gained his wisdom from the greatest teacher in existence....the same one who taught Jesus. (John 7:15-18)

    In all his dealings with Israel, God stressed the point that he would be with them as long as they were obedient to him. (Exodus 19:3-6)

    The difference between Solomon and Jesus was that one remained steadfast in his obedience to God, and the other did not.

    Solomon married many foreign women who were worshippers of false gods and they wore him down into some kind of fusion of their worship with his. He compromised on his worship, and lost God's favor.....but Jesus never did.

    What Solomon wrote still resonates with the wisdom that God gave him....we can still benefit from it like we can benefit from the teaching of Jesus. But we also learn something about the value of remaining faithful to God and his word.
     
    #2 Deeje, Apr 7, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  3. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    But Solomon spoke this as the Word of GOD. The fact that he departed from the ways he was trained in, either means that he was not trained, or that this verse is not true.
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You missed the point entirely.....its called free will. Solomon was trained well by his father David, but he exercised his free will in an inappropriate way towards the end of his life.....he failed to keep God's command about not marrying foreign women, (Deuteronomy 17:17) but he was King and he had an eye for beautiful women, which was his undoing. (1 Kings 11:1-6) (Remember his mother and father, David and Bathsheba.....? Had God not intervened in David's case, he would have been put to death as an adulterer and murderer.) And yet David was a man whose heart "was complete" before his God in spite of his gross wrongdoing. What was the difference between Solomon and his father, David.......? Genuine repentance.
     
  5. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    No. You haven't understood the verse. Look at what the verse is saying. IF this is a counsel to the children of the kingdom about child raising, then solomon is not a good example.
    All of what you have written here doesn't address the verse Proverbs 22:6

    Free will doesn't change what was written. The point is if the person has been trained well, and trained by the GOD, that person CANNOT depart from those ways. Its a can't. Else the verse is a lie, or you are saying that GOD is not the best teacher. By the free will of the person, that was trained by GOD, by the wisdom that they have attained they can't depart from them. Yet solomon did, and even worshipped false gods.

    This is a man that was said to receive wisdom from the GOD of David, why then would he worship other gods?
     
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  6. Isolde Schulz

    Isolde Schulz Member

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    Thank you for pontificating.
    My parents allowed me as much freedom as possible with zero punishments.
     
  7. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    Pontificating?
     
  8. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    I'm glad it's not. I'd still be very miserable if it was.
     
  9. Isolde Schulz

    Isolde Schulz Member

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    Bible lingo is alien to me.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    And you would be correct....there was no impediment to Solomon remaining obedient to his God except if he decided to act out of his own will and not God's. That is free will.

    Oh but it does......Proverbs 22:6 is accurate because as previously mentioned, God was only with his people when they obeyed him....if they disobeyed he left them to reap what they had sown. Solomon knew better but his disobedience was his undoing....this is the history of the whole nation. God put "life and death" before his people but he allowed them to choose. (Deuteronomy 30:19-20)

    You really have a very twisted view of the scriptures IMO.....they all apply, but just not the way you read them. Someone who is trained in God's ways can ALWAYS disobey God because he has free will. Adam was without defect and yet he chose to side with his disobedient wife rather than to obey his God. If the humans had no free will, then the command to refrain from eating of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" would have been meaningless....and so would its penalty.

    For the reason that God warned Solomon not to marry worshippers of foreign gods because they would incline his heart away from his God....for the same reason why God warned Cain when he saw a murderous jealousy coming up into his heart. God does not force us to obey him...he simply gives us good reasons not to disobey him.....if we choose a course of disobedience and it goes belly up...who should we blame if we suffer because of our own decisions?
     
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  11. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Because Proverbs are generalizations. There are exceptions to the rule. Clearly some people will go their own way because of temptations that occur. Solomon gave in to temptation even though it's believed he later repented before he died. Yet he did depart from the narrow way while he was old. But in general the proverb holds true. The wisdom of a proverb is to take a known wisdom itself and express it in a intentionally over-generalized way that is easy to understand and remember. This way the spirit of wisdom itself is not ever bogged down in legalese.

    If you've ever read an end user license agreement or terms of service then you'll understand how mind numbing, boring and even frustrating legalese can be. To subject the spirit of wisdom to the same treatment would damage it and take it's power away.

    This is why the spirit of legalism is against the spirit of wisdom.
     
  12. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    I was basically educated by the church for my middle school years, and was being brought up to be a pastor, so I still know it very well. I used to beat Christians with it in Indiana when they'd come preaching to, because it was rare they could match me in Bible stuff and church history. For me, it's really not an exaggeration that I've forgotten more than most of them will ever know.
    And then I moved to California and they don't really approach people here. The only need I have for it is here. And that's much a need so I'm forgetting more. I already recently realized I mistakenly though Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God was written by Edwards during the Second Great Revival, but it was the first. And that is a very significant thing for contemporary American Protestantism.
     
  13. Isolde Schulz

    Isolde Schulz Member

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    I congratulate you for being "ambidextrous" in your path. If you have forgotten much, no whiplash lost from changing your mind too quickly. My own family is Lutheran heritage in the Netherlands where I grew up. But as you know, it's more secular there than fanatical but not without its share of headaches. There are unapproachable people everywhere you go, just more concentrated in some places and hopefully not California.
     
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  14. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    The differences between Indiana and California is almost like an entirely different country. It's just not white enough here to be like Indiana. I've even been trying to learn Spanish (it's been slow for me for some reason) because it's used here a lot. When I first moved here hearing it didn't help feeling homesick, because you basically in Indiana it's 99% English, .5% Germany .5% everything else.
    It's way less racist here, people are more laid back and tolerant of others, they typically just don't care, even the labor laws are different and WAY more worker friendly.
    Indiana there were times people told me to leave, as I just did not fit in at all there. Here, it's basically impossible to not fit in and I would be stunned if anyone here treated me like people in Indiana did. Sure, there's some out there who would, but they just aren't high on Jesus here like they are in Indiana (and the MidWest in general). It's so bad it's more racist than a lot of places in the South.
    Basically, Indiana is a bigoted Protestant ****hole state of corn, farms, bars, churches, meth, pills, and opiates (strong, solid Klan history, as well).
    I had to leave it. It was a psychological toxin for me, and what I would call existentially abusive. I still remember the pains that anguish I felt during the nightmares I had of being sent to Hell. It left me wanting to die, and praying to god he would send death. And the more faith I placed in god he would make everything better, the worse and more miserable my life got. So I plucked myself from Jesus' flock, evicted to the holy ghost from my life, and told god to bugger off.
    Things have been getting better ever since.
    I've known a few people from there. I remember two of them not getting what Americans were objecting to over the ACA, because apparently the Dutch system is what that is modeled after (this is been awhile so I don't recall the details).
     
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  15. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Despite the fact that Solomon was blessed by God with wisdom and riches, he was not perfect and was obviously influenced by his own weaknesses. Same as David was. Nevertheless, the concept of training one's children in righteousness is certainly wonderful and should be exercised by godly parents.
     
  16. Isolde Schulz

    Isolde Schulz Member

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    Forgive me, not sure which ACA you mean. I might know it under a different acronym but I understand the gist of the American objections. Would they object to bike theft in Amsterdam? We don't lock them up to begin with: an inversion of "common sense".

    I can fathom how states in the U.S. are each like its own country, I've travelled mainly on the coasts. As it pertains to religion, I detect a unique vibe (or lack thereof) to each place, with its own history and lore. Sometimes but not always, you can sense it in people's eyes, speech, or simple gestures.
     
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  17. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    I don't disagree with you. Not withstanding it doesn't explain how Solomon can receive wisdom from GOD, and be trained by GOD and later in life worship idols, and false gods.

    Preachers have not touched on this too often as it is not something that they can deceive the people with.

    To be trained by GOD and receive Wisdom. Just look at what is written of wisdom in Proverbs 4, and for there to have been evidence of that wisdom which spread across the land, attracted even a queen, how can a man with such wisdom later worship god's that are false?

    You see for Solomon, it's not faith in the sense he was given something tangible that had evidence, trained by GOD directly. He never heard anything or received anything from the false gods he worshipped.
     
  18. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Sorry. Affordable Care Act.
     
  19. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    Then you haven't understood what wisdom is. Wisdom is profitable to direct. Solomon was supposed to receive that wisdom from GOD. If that's true, then it's not the same as the others mentioned. How can solomon have that height of wisdom, and turn away from GOD?

    Free will is badly misunderstood. We act according to what we see is good for us. We act also according to our own understanding. And we do things we like to do. If we are doing things we don't want to do, then that is kind of like being forced do it for whatever reason. Still you chose to be in that situation.

    But the height of Solomons wisdom, coming directly from the GOD, is not the kind that can lead someone to depart from the ways of GOD. The mindset solomon had, along with his height of understanding, cannot lead to making foolish decisions. The reason this is so delicate, is because we are talking about wisdom from GOD. The kind that maketh the wise to be foolish. Not the kind of scientists. The kind that scientists will also be in awe of.

    How can Solomon with that height of wisdom, turn away from the source of that wisdom? Its not the kind that if you have it, you can make mistakes because your understanding won't allow it.

    Father Adam did something only he can do that was a must do for his children. But let us stay on topic here.
     
    #19 Yahcubs777, Apr 8, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
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  20. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    It certainly is true. It's just not explained well.
     
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