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Featured Traditionalist vs. Liberalising (Abrahamics)

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rival, Sep 11, 2021.

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  1. Traditionalist

    70.0%
  2. Liberal

    30.0%
  1. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    Wow, you are so lucky in that respect.
    I only convinced myself to go to churches in my early 60’s and after 4 years of mental struggle, I finally packed it in.

    Like you said earlier, so very liberating.
     
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  2. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Hey @Rival ,

    I'm a traditionalist too. The standard Shoghi Effendi guardian of the Baha'i Faith expects is clear:

    As to a chaste and holy life, it should be regarded as no less essential a factor that must contribute its proper share to the strengthening and vitalization of the Bahá’í community, upon which must in turn depend the success of any Bahá’í plan or enterprise. In these days when the forces of irreligion are weakening the moral fiber, and undermining the foundations of individual morality, the obligation of chastity and holiness must claim an increasing share of the attention of the American believers, both in their individual capacities and as the responsible custodians of the interests of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh. In the discharge of such an obligation, to which the special circumstances resulting from an excessive and enervating materialism now prevailing in their country lend particular significance, they must play a conspicuous and predominant role. All of them, be they men or women, must, at this threatening hour when the lights of religion are fading out, and its restraints are one by one being abolished, pause to examine themselves, scrutinize their conduct, and with characteristic resolution arise to purge the life of their community of every trace of moral laxity that might stain the name, or impair the integrity, of so holy and precious a Faith.

    Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 29
     
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  3. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
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    Are "forces of irreligion" supposed to include all irreligious people and their worldviews or only a subset thereof? The wording seems overgeneralized and a bit on the demonizing side if it means the former.
     
  4. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Why would you think she qualifies as a liberal Christian? Liberal or progressive Christianity doesn't look like that. It doesn't have anything to do with theology. It's really more just an aberration. Not very healthy either I'll add, speaking as a progressive myself. It even says that in the article itself:

    “I’ve never heard of anything quite like this,” said Thumma, director of the Hartford Institute for Religion Research at Hartford Seminary and a longtime scholar of nondenominational churches and religious leadership."
    Ditto.

    Is this what you think progressive Christianity looks like???
     
    #24 Windwalker, Sep 11, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Abortion: mothers should be discouraged morally but not barred. I do not think it is murder. I recommend anti-cruelty measures such as required anesthetic for fetus.
    Dress: modest dress is too complicated to talk about in this post.
    Sex: I recommend committed relationships with exceptions. There are exceptions, because things don't always happen in a prescribed manner. We need families with non sexual familial relationships in them. Children are made through sex, but they aren't formed by sex only. They need to feel safe and valued, to be corrected and guided. They need family love which is not sexual, not performative, not dismissive. The judgment which comes with sex is for adults, and that is the natural biologically cruel imperative which all adults must face but not children. It is not suitable for them.

    I agree society can get too sexually oriented, and this can devalue people. Its not good for everyone to be either a potential sexual target or to be completely ignored, particularly not everywhere we go. Life shouldn't be a constant sexual approval contest. That's not how to live.

    At the same time it shouldn't be a series of taboo hoops. People can get very entangled in the webs of taboos and unable to function. Those are another kind of judgment, but when taboos are functioning right they provide non-sexual spaces and means to live without sexual judgment. I think it fills a need not only for those sexually unlovely but for sexually attractive people, too. We all need to feel personal value apart from sex.

    When I go on a job I shouldn't have to worry about turning people down who invite me to sex; but I do. That's weird to me, but this is common. At work I have to worry about not offending people and also about being attractive. I can't just do my work, because proper taboos are not in place. The trouble is there's often nowhere but work to court. There simply aren't many ways for people to court easily except for at work. That means sex is always both taboo and not, so its confusing and even leaves people wondering sometimes about their personal value apart from their sexual value. "Did I get hired because she thought I was cute or because I was perfect for the job? I'm not sure!"

    Assume scriptures are conservative in nature (since they don't change), but we must ask how they came to be. Did they conserve themselves into existence? Is there literally a formula in scripture for every situation? Not usually. Usually scripture mentions a dynamic method for dealing with situations. In my case every situation is dynamic, for my conservative scripture says "You will be given the wisdom you need" rather than "consult this scripture for every situation."

    Conservative is often an illusion. I think we already have changed so much that we need to keep changing until we go back to the original style. The only way this will happen is to keep moving. In the 1980's people rejected bell-bottom jeans. For that reason some people here in 2021 people think they are trendy and new. Bell bottoms are back, and its because fashion keeps moving forward until it cycles. Lately I saw a lot of plaid Izod ties in a department store. They've been out since the 70's. Next we'll be seeing ten gallon hats.

     
  6. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    I think people would see me as a liberale Muslim.
     
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I believe the most traditional traditions of Islam are the most liberal. So the dichotomy in your OP is false in my opinion. :)
     
  8. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, rose the third day according to the Scriptures. If a person believes/trusts this, repents and receives Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior they are a believer. If a person rejects this message they are an unbeliever. When a person is born again of the Spirit of God by trusting God they will be led by the Spirit to live the Word of God as the Spirit leads this person. Since God isn’t divided, anyone being led by the Spirit will live by the same moral code. So that’s why I view people as either a believer or an unbeliever.
     
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  9. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Well-Known Member

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    The Baha'i Faith has some teachings that would be considered liberal, while there are other teachings that would be considered conservative. We fit in no cultural or political box.

    For instance, on the conservative side, I had no sex before marriage.

    On the liberal side, I believe in the elimination of the extremes of wealth. This does imply communism, just the wealthy have more than they need by far, and no one should be abjectly poor. No one should go hungry, all should have a home, no one should worried day-by-day whether they will lose it all.
     
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  10. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Well-Known Member

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    Is the belief that he rose physically among the criterions for being an unbeliever?
     
  11. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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  12. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Yes he did. You are so right!

    Jesus even said that there’d be those who would claim to be following him (Matthew 7:21-23), even performing “many powerful works”, but Jesus would say “Get away from me, you workers of iniquity!”

    Even “expelling demons”. (Or so they thought.)

    Now, if Jesus (and by extension, his Father) refused to help them, where would they get this power, to the point where (they thought) they were expelling demons?

    At 1 Timothy 4 1, Paul said that later, some would “abandon the faith” & pay attention to “misleading inspired expressions, and teachings of” — WHO?

    (Different Bible versions word it differently; fascinating to read the verse on Biblehub!)

    But that’s scary isn’t it?! To know that Jehovah isn’t the source of all “inspiration”!

    2 Timothy 4 3,4 is enlightening, also.

    It’s just as is mentioned in Revelation 12 9,12 ….we have “woe” right now! But not for too much longer.
     
  13. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    To me irreligious means turning away from virtue and justice. In that sense religious people can be irreligious while those who practice no religion may embody some of the highest values. It is about the condition of our true selves our hearts. Having the name Muslim, Christian or Jew is meaningless unless one lives the lives. Better to have no religion than to follow one that brings out the worst in people.
     
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  14. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    I have great respect for tradition. Particularly liberal tradition.

    Jesus was put to death for challenging the establishment of his time and place. Subversive, radical spirituality is very much a Christian tradition.
     
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  15. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    You do realize that the Pharisees are given a bum rap in Christian scriptures?
     
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  16. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Don’t know about that, Ezekiel and other prophets prophesied some strong words. Ex. Ezekiel 34. Maybe you mean something else.
     
  17. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    The priestly class don't appear in a great light in the Gospels, no. I doubt the modern Christian equivalent would fare any better, should the story be re-enacted today, in Rome or Canterbury or Washington or wherever.
     
  18. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    At least they follow 1 line of Jesus "thou shall not judge", and that is my stance also on their choice within "Freedom of Religion"

    My Master taught us "follow one of the instructions given to a T, and that will get you to your goal
    In a Hindu epic called "Ramana", this Truth is illustrated by the writer of it, who used to be a criminal
     
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  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I don't really fit into either category. When it comes to morality, I'm pretty traditionalist. In terms of Jewish observance, I'm pretty conservative. But my theology is extremely liberal, as in I see errors in the texts, accept evolution, etc.
     
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  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    You do realize that the Pharisees were not priests, but rabbis?
     
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