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Tradition before Scripture

Neutral Name

Active Member
Christians gathered for the Eucharist before any Scripture was penned.

I think that could be quite possible but not known for sure. The scriptures could have been written while Jesus was living or shortly after he died but were possibly destroyed or in some other way no longer available. The scriptures that we have could be copies of earlier sacred writings. We may not ever know or older texts may be -discovered.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I think that could be quite possible but not known for sure. The scriptures could have been written while Jesus was living or shortly after he died but were possibly destroyed or in some other way no longer available. The scriptures that we have could be copies of earlier sacred writings. We may not ever know or older texts may be -discovered.

No.. The gospels were written after 70 AD.. Acts was written a little earlier.. early to mid 60s AD.

They have found much older texts in Sumer and in Ras Shamra. Not the gospels, of course.. but the creation story and flood story and Psalms.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
If that was true, why did the Septuagint bother to translate the Hebrew texts into Greek which was the popular language at the time?

It was written for Greek speaking Jews in Egypt, but every copy was handcopied and precious.

Aramaic and later Greek were the languages used after the Babylonian exile.

Look for the Decapolis cities on a map. They were Greek.
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
It was written for Greek speaking Jews in Egypt, but every copy was handcopied and precious.

Aramaic and later Greek were the languages used after the Babylonian exile.

Look for the Decapolis cities on a map. They were Greek.

That is exactly my point, the Decapolis cities were Greek speaking Jews, that is why the Hebrew scriptures were translated in Greek.

Stating that people could not read in Jesus day, is simply put, incorrect.
Why else would Jesus repeatedly say " did you not read" when he quoted from the scriptures.
Additionally, If people could not read why did they own expensive books which they felt compeled to burn (Acts 19:19)
The fact that these books were expensive is not evidence that they could not read.

All the best.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
That is exactly my point, the Decapolis cities were Greek speaking Jews, that is why the Hebrew scriptures were translated in Greek.

Stating that people could not read in Jesus day, is simply put, incorrect.
Why else would Jesus repeatedly say " did you not read" when he quoted from the scriptures.
Additionally, If people could not read why did they own expensive books which they felt compeled to burn (Acts 19:19)
The fact that these books were expensive is not evidence that they could not read.

All the best.

Acts 19:19 19A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas.

Most people couldn't read nor did they own scrolls.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
That is exactly my point, the Decapolis cities were Greek speaking Jews, that is why the Hebrew scriptures were translated in Greek.

Stating that people could not read in Jesus day, is simply put, incorrect.
Why else would Jesus repeatedly say " did you not read" when he quoted from the scriptures.
Additionally, If people could not read why did they own expensive books which they felt compeled to burn (Acts 19:19)
The fact that these books were expensive is not evidence that they could not read.

All the best.

The most thorough examination of literacy in Palestine is by a professor of Jewish studies at the University of London, Catherine Hezser, who shows that in the days of Jesus probably only 3 percent of Jews in Palestine were literate.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Sounds like an anachronism to me.. What "scriptures" did they have?

Date of Writing: The Book of Acts was likely written between 61-64 A.D.

The Septuagint, which was a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures, by Jews in Alexandria hundreds of years before Jesus.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Where are you getting all of that? I don't remember it being in the Bible and I know the Bible pretty well. Not to mention that I keep up with all of the secular people who try to explain differences between what is in the Bible and what the truth is about Jesus. I have not heard most of this anywhere before.

And the reason that you have never heard the truth before, is because you follow the teachings of the Roman Church of Emperor Constantine and not the teachings as revealed in the Holy Scriptures.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
There are two Bethlehems and its unlikely Mary and Joseph walked 90 miles or rode a donkey..

twobeth.gif


Luke's account is a great favorite, but its unlikely Herod had all the baby boys killed or that they fled to Egypt. In fact, there wasn't a census that year.
There are two Bethlehems and its unlikely Mary and Joseph walked 90 miles or rode a donkey..

twobeth.gif


Luke's account is a great favorite, but its unlikely Herod had all the baby boys killed or that they fled to Egypt. In fact, there wasn't a census that year.

Most people who wish to attack and denigrate the Holy scriptures, will say that the Roman census which was taken in Israel at the time of the birth of Jesus, was the census of Quirinius, and of course it wasn’t. Or in Sooda's case; That there was no census in the year of the birth of Jesus.

The KJV, is riddled with translation errors….. In Luke 2:1; 2: 2; 2: 3; 2: 5. And Acts 5: 37; the Greek word “Apographe,” is erroneously translated as “TAX.” But according to Young’s Analytical Concordance, it means, “A writing off or Register.”

The Amplified version…. Luke 2: 1; In those days it occurred that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that the whole Roman Empire should be REGISTERED. Luke 2: 2; This was the first enrolment, and it was made when Quirinius was “hegemon” in Syria. Luke 2: 3; And all the people were going to be REGISTED, each to his own city or town.

Early in the twentieth century, a papyrus was discovered which contained an edict by G. Vibius Maximus, the Roman governor of Egypt, stating: Since the enrollment by households is approaching, it is necessary to command all who for any reason are out of their own district to return to their own home, in order to perform the usual business of the taxation… (Cobern, C.M. 1929. The New Archeological Discoveries and their Bearing upon the New Testament. New York and London: Funk & Wagnalls, p. 47; Unger, M.F. 1962. Archaeology and the New Testament. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, p. 64).

The same papyrus also confirms Luke’s assertion that a man had to bring his family with him when he traveled to his place of ancestry in order to be properly counted by the Roman authorities (Lk. 2:5). The document reads: I register Pakebkis, the son born to me and my wife, Taasies and Taopis in the 10th year of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus Imperator [Emperor], and request that the name of my aforesaid son Pakeb[k] is to be entered on the list” (Boyd, R.T. 1991. World’s Bible Handbook. Grand Rapids, MI: World Publishing, p. 415).

This sheds light on why Joseph had to bring his highly pregnant wife along with him when he went to Bethlehem. Such discoveries caused the late George A. Barton, Ph.D., Professor of Biblical Literature and Semitic Languages at Bryn Mawr and former Director of the American School of Oriental Research in Jerusalem, to comment: Luke’s statement, that Joseph went up from Nazareth to Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to enroll himself with Mary (Luke 2:4, 5), turns out to be in exact accord with the governmental regulations as we now know them from the papyri.

The Living New Testament….. Luke 2: 1; About this time Caesar Augustus, the Roman Emperor, decreed that a census should be taken throughout the nation. Luke 2: 2; this census was taken when Quirinius was “hegemon” in Syria. Luke 2: 3; Everyone was required to return to his ancestral home for this ‘REGISTATION.

RSV…… 2: 1; In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be ENROLLED. Luke 2: 2; This was the first ENROLLMENT, when Quirinius was “hegemon” in Syria.

Luke does not specifically state what the Roman office held by Quirinius actually was when the first registration or enrolment was made in Judaea in 6 B.C. But in reference to the position he held, Luke uses the Greek word “hegemoneuontos tes Surias Kureniou.’ “hegemon,” Which the authors of the English bible have translated “Governor.”

We know that in the time of Caligula, the African administration was divided in such a way, that the military power, and with it the foreign policy of the Province, was controlled by a Lieutenant of Augustus, while the internal affairs of the Province were left to the ordinary governor, a Proconsul.

Quirinius was a special Lieutenant of Augustus, who conducted the war against the Homonadenses, while Varus, the Governor, administered the ordinary affairs of Syria. The duties of Quirinius might be described by calling him dux in Latin, and the Greek equivalent is necessarily and correctly hegemon, as Luke has it.

Around the year of 6 B. C., the Governors of Galatia and Syria were involved in the construction of a system of military roads and garrison cities. They had a major problem. The Homonadenses had taken control of a Roman client nation located in the Taurus mountains which traversed the centre of these operations. Syria and Galatia would normally be required to intervene but Galatia had no army and Varus had no military experience.

Whereas Quirinius was a general and famous for having quelled the Marmaridea rebellion in Cilicia (Libya) in 14 B.C.. Quirinius was the one who Caesar Augustus sent to conquer the Homonadenses nation. This campaign had to have been implemented from Syria, as the Taurus Mountains, marked the northern limit of the Syrian plain from where Quirinius would have undoubtedly launched his campaign.

It necessarily follows that in 6-5 B.C., General Quirinius dealt with the Homonadenses situation as Augustus' vicegerent or special Lieutenant, whilst Varus attended to the internal administration of Syria.

As Herod the Great died in 4 B.C. believing that Jesus was over 12 months old and ordering the death of all the male children two years and below, or all who were born in and after 6 B.C., we can now safely assume that Jesus was born in 6 B.C., when the census of ENROLLMENT was taken in Judaea, while General Quirinius in 6-5 B.C., was dealing with the Homonadenses in the Taurus Mountains, which marked the northern limit of the Syrian plain from where Quirinius would have undoubtedly launched his campaign against the Homonadenses.

This reveals that the census of Israel in 6.B.C, when Quirinius was on a campaign in Syria as Augustus’ Vicegerent, was not an exercise in tax collecting, but an exercise in information gathering, which was a census of the entire Roman Empire, decreed by Caesar Augustus, It would have taken a few years to implement and complete this. It was decreed in 8 BC. and the completed set of documents, which registered the loyalty of Roman citizens and people of note in subject nations to Caesar Augustus, was presented to him in 3 BC.

The following is Augustus' own account: Page 1. "during my sixth term as consul (BC.28), I, along with my comrade Marcus Agrippa, commanded a census to be taken of the people. I directed a lustrum, the first in forty-one years, in which 4,063,000 Roman citizens were counted. And once again, with imperial authority, I single handedly authorized a lustrum when the consuls of Rome were Gaius Censorinus and Gaius Asinius (8 B.C.), during which time 4,233,000 Roman citizens were counted."

In Luke’s day there was no B.C. (Before Christ) or C.E. (Christian Era). So, in what year did Luke say that the census of Caesar Augustus was held in Israel? [ANSWER] In the year that General Quirinius, as Augustus’ Vicegerent or special Lueitenant, was on a campaign in Syria dealing with the Homonadenses situation, which we now know as the year 6 B.C. the year in which Jesus was born, and two years before the death of Herod the Great.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Most people who wish to attack and denigrate the Holy scriptures, will say that the Roman census which was taken in Israel at the time of the birth of Jesus, was the census of Quirinius, and of course it wasn’t. Or in Sooda's case; That there was no census in the year of the birth of Jesus.

The KJV, is riddled with translation errors….. In Luke 2:1; 2: 2; 2: 3; 2: 5. And Acts 5: 37; the Greek word “Apographe,” is erroneously translated as “TAX.” But according to Young’s Analytical Concordance, it means, “A writing off or Register.”

The Amplified version…. Luke 2: 1; In those days it occurred that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that the whole Roman Empire should be REGISTERED. Luke 2: 2; This was the first enrolment, and it was made when Quirinius was “hegemon” in Syria. Luke 2: 3; And all the people were going to be REGISTED, each to his own city or town.

Early in the twentieth century, a papyrus was discovered which contained an edict by G. Vibius Maximus, the Roman governor of Egypt, stating: Since the enrollment by households is approaching, it is necessary to command all who for any reason are out of their own district to return to their own home, in order to perform the usual business of the taxation… (Cobern, C.M. 1929. The New Archeological Discoveries and their Bearing upon the New Testament. New York and London: Funk & Wagnalls, p. 47; Unger, M.F. 1962. Archaeology and the New Testament. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, p. 64).

The same papyrus also confirms Luke’s assertion that a man had to bring his family with him when he traveled to his place of ancestry in order to be properly counted by the Roman authorities (Lk. 2:5). The document reads: I register Pakebkis, the son born to me and my wife, Taasies and Taopis in the 10th year of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus Imperator [Emperor], and request that the name of my aforesaid son Pakeb[k] is to be entered on the list” (Boyd, R.T. 1991. World’s Bible Handbook. Grand Rapids, MI: World Publishing, p. 415).

This sheds light on why Joseph had to bring his highly pregnant wife along with him when he went to Bethlehem. Such discoveries caused the late George A. Barton, Ph.D., Professor of Biblical Literature and Semitic Languages at Bryn Mawr and former Director of the American School of Oriental Research in Jerusalem, to comment: Luke’s statement, that Joseph went up from Nazareth to Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to enroll himself with Mary (Luke 2:4, 5), turns out to be in exact accord with the governmental regulations as we now know them from the papyri.

The Living New Testament….. Luke 2: 1; About this time Caesar Augustus, the Roman Emperor, decreed that a census should be taken throughout the nation. Luke 2: 2; this census was taken when Quirinius was “hegemon” in Syria. Luke 2: 3; Everyone was required to return to his ancestral home for this ‘REGISTATION.

RSV…… 2: 1; In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be ENROLLED. Luke 2: 2; This was the first ENROLLMENT, when Quirinius was “hegemon” in Syria.

Luke does not specifically state what the Roman office held by Quirinius actually was when the first registration or enrolment was made in Judaea in 6 B.C. But in reference to the position he held, Luke uses the Greek word “hegemoneuontos tes Surias Kureniou.’ “hegemon,” Which the authors of the English bible have translated “Governor.”

We know that in the time of Caligula, the African administration was divided in such a way, that the military power, and with it the foreign policy of the Province, was controlled by a Lieutenant of Augustus, while the internal affairs of the Province were left to the ordinary governor, a Proconsul.

Quirinius was a special Lieutenant of Augustus, who conducted the war against the Homonadenses, while Varus, the Governor, administered the ordinary affairs of Syria. The duties of Quirinius might be described by calling him dux in Latin, and the Greek equivalent is necessarily and correctly hegemon, as Luke has it.

Around the year of 6 B. C., the Governors of Galatia and Syria were involved in the construction of a system of military roads and garrison cities. They had a major problem. The Homonadenses had taken control of a Roman client nation located in the Taurus mountains which traversed the centre of these operations. Syria and Galatia would normally be required to intervene but Galatia had no army and Varus had no military experience.

Whereas Quirinius was a general and famous for having quelled the Marmaridea rebellion in Cilicia (Libya) in 14 B.C.. Quirinius was the one who Caesar Augustus sent to conquer the Homonadenses nation. This campaign had to have been implemented from Syria, as the Taurus Mountains, marked the northern limit of the Syrian plain from where Quirinius would have undoubtedly launched his campaign.

It necessarily follows that in 6-5 B.C., General Quirinius dealt with the Homonadenses situation as Augustus' vicegerent or special Lieutenant, whilst Varus attended to the internal administration of Syria.

As Herod the Great died in 4 B.C. believing that Jesus was over 12 months old and ordering the death of all the male children two years and below, or all who were born in and after 6 B.C., we can now safely assume that Jesus was born in 6 B.C., when the census of ENROLLMENT was taken in Judaea, while General Quirinius in 6-5 B.C., was dealing with the Homonadenses in the Taurus Mountains, which marked the northern limit of the Syrian plain from where Quirinius would have undoubtedly launched his campaign against the Homonadenses.

This reveals that the census of Israel in 6.B.C, when Quirinius was on a campaign in Syria as Augustus’ Vicegerent, was not an exercise in tax collecting, but an exercise in information gathering, which was a census of the entire Roman Empire, decreed by Caesar Augustus, It would have taken a few years to implement and complete this. It was decreed in 8 BC. and the completed set of documents, which registered the loyalty of Roman citizens and people of note in subject nations to Caesar Augustus, was presented to him in 3 BC.

The following is Augustus' own account: Page 1. "during my sixth term as consul (BC.28), I, along with my comrade Marcus Agrippa, commanded a census to be taken of the people. I directed a lustrum, the first in forty-one years, in which 4,063,000 Roman citizens were counted. And once again, with imperial authority, I single handedly authorized a lustrum when the consuls of Rome were Gaius Censorinus and Gaius Asinius (8 B.C.), during which time 4,233,000 Roman citizens were counted."

In Luke’s day there was no B.C. (Before Christ) or C.E. (Christian Era). So, in what year did Luke say that the census of Caesar Augustus was held in Israel? [ANSWER] In the year that General Quirinius, as Augustus’ Vicegerent or special Lueitenant, was on a campaign in Syria dealing with the Homonadenses situation, which we now know as the year 6 B.C. the year in which Jesus was born, and two years before the death of Herod the Great.

So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child.

Luke 2:4

Luke still seems to have botched it. Jesus would have been 5 years old.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
1. When Augustus issued this degree, Judea was not part of the Roman province, but was a client kingdom ruled by Herod the Great. It would therefore not have been part of any Roman census.

2. Quirinius was governor of Syria from 6 to 12 AD, and not during the reign of Herod, who died in 4 BC, where both Luke and Matthew date the birth. The governor of Syria then was either C. Sentius Saturninus (9–6 BC) or possibly Quinctilius Varus (6–4 BC).

3. There is no record of Romans requiring people to return to their ancestral home; people were registered where they lived, not where their ancestors came from.

4. There would have been no need to take Mary with him; registration was by the male head of the house only.

This has led some sceptical commentators to conclude that Luke is flatly contradicting Matthew, and demonstrates that neither record is historically reliable.

There's more.

Was Luke in error about the date of Jesus' birth? | Psephizo
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The scriptures could have been written while Jesus was living or shortly after he died but were possibly destroyed or in some other way no longer available.

There is a scholarly consensus that an oral tradition, apostolic preaching, preceded the NT in post Easter faith. By human standards Jesus was a failure, executed as a criminal, his followers disbanded, his movement dead.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
There is a scholarly consensus that an oral tradition, apostolic preaching, preceded the NT in post Easter faith. By human standards Jesus was a failure, executed as a criminal, his followers disbanded, his movement dead.

I thought you were talking about the gospels.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
‘Out of Egypt I have called my Son'” (2:15). The quotation comes from the book of Hosea 11:1 and refers to the Exodus of the children of Israel from their bondage in Egypt.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There is a hierarchy of teaching, I don' t think the good priest inferred that non belief in the 'core' Creed of the Church one remains in communion with the Church. We may disagree on interpretation of Scripture etc.
He didn't teach non-belief but did say that we do have the right of personal discernment.

One thing that we have to remember is that many of our teachings were quite contentious in their formation, such as with the doctrine of the Trinity. Formulating it was no slam-dunk by any means, and i t actually involved a compromise to bring those in Arianism into the fold. Even the selection of the canon, which took over 1/2 a century without even making a decision on the "Apocrypha", was highly contentious.

But the teachings of the Church are the teachings of the Church, so especially in any case of doubt, we should go in that direction, and this is what the priest said as well. One of the best books I've read covering this is "Let Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide", which is a Catholic source. I don't know if it's still available though.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
1. When Augustus issued this degree, Judea was not part of the Roman province, but was a client kingdom ruled by Herod the Great. It would therefore not have been part of any Roman census.

2. Quirinius was governor of Syria from 6 to 12 AD, and not during the reign of Herod, who died in 4 BC, where both Luke and Matthew date the birth. The governor of Syria then was either C. Sentius Saturninus (9–6 BC) or possibly Quinctilius Varus (6–4 BC).

3. There is no record of Romans requiring people to return to their ancestral home; people were registered where they lived, not where their ancestors came from.

4. There would have been no need to take Mary with him; registration was by the male head of the house only.

This has led some sceptical commentators to conclude that Luke is flatly contradicting Matthew, and demonstrates that neither record is historically reliable.

There's more.

Was Luke in error about the date of Jesus' birth? | Psephizo

Sooda wrote……. 1. When Augustus issued this degree, Judea was not part of the Roman province, but was a client kingdom ruled by Herod the Great. It would therefore not have been part of any Roman census.

The Anointed...….. A vassal state within the Roman Empire, was a kingdom that had been conquered by Rome, who then chose a client/puppet King to rule that vassal state in the manner as prescribed by the ruling power which in this case was Rome.

Herod did not rule a free and autonomous country. Although he was allowed to tax the people of that country, but Certain limitations were put on the Kings of all vassal states, they could neither wage independent wars or make treaties, plus other limitations, and if they overstepped those limits they were immediately sacked by the ruling power, which was Rome, and another puppet put in their place.

Semi-autonomous kingdoms within the Roman Empire, such as Judea, which was under the Roman puppet King, ‘Herod the Great’, were expected to maintain and support the continued growth of those kingdoms, and the funds needed for those projects were the responsibility of the king, who taxed that kingdom. Rome did not tax the Israelites until after the death of Herod the Great.

During his reign, Herod the Great built many massive fortresses and splendid cities, amphitheatres, and hippodromes for the Grecian games inaugurated in honour of Augustus, but his most grandiose creation was the Temple in Jerusalem. The taxes needed to support these extravagant projects was a bone of contention with the Jewish population.

In 63 BC, Antipater sided with Rome when Pompey invaded Palestine and in 47 BC Julius Caesar whose mistress Cleopatra was to later bear to him a son ‘Caesarion,’ appointed Antipater procurator of Judea and bestowed Roman citizenship upon him, an honour that was inherited by the Macedonian’s descendant, ‘Herod the Great.’

It was in 37 BC, that the Roman senate nominated Herod as the King of Judea, a position he held for 32 years. Even after the defeat by Octavian, (who was to be later known as Caesar Augustus,) over his good friend Mark Antony at Actium in 31 BC in their struggle for the throne of the assassinated Julius Caesar, Octavian who knew of Herod’s love and earlier support for his now deceased friend “Mark Antony,” never the less knew that Herod was the one who would best rule Israel as he himself would want it to be ruled, and Herod and Augustus were to later become friends.

Most people who wish to attack and denigrate the Holy scriptures, will say that the Roman census which was taken in Israel at the time of the birth of Jesus, was the census of Quirinius, and of course it wasn’t.

Sooda wrote…….2. Quirinius was governor of Syria from 6 to 12 AD, and not during the reign of Herod, who died in 4 BC, where both Luke and Matthew date the birth. The governor of Syria then was either C. Sentius Saturninus (9–6 BC) or possibly Quinctilius Varus (6–4 BC).

The Anointed...…. The KJV, is riddled with translation errors….. In Luke 2:1; 2: 2; 2: 3; 2: 5. And Acts 5: 37; the Greek word “Apographe,” is erroneously translated as “TAX.” But according to Young’s Analytical Concordance, it means, “A writing off or Register.”

The Living New Testament….. Luke 2: 1; About this time Caesar Augustus, the Roman Emperor, decreed that a census should be taken throughout the nation. Luke 2: 2; this census was taken when Quirinius was “hegemon” in Syria. Luke 2: 3; Everyone was required to return to his ancestral home for this ‘REGISTATION.”

RSV…… 2: 1; In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be ENROLLED. Luke 2: 2; This was the first ENROLLMENT, when Quirinius was “hegemon” in Syria.

Luke does not specifically state what the Roman office held by Quirinius actually was when the first registration or enrolment was made in Judaea in 6 B.C. But in reference to the position he held, Luke uses the Greek word “hegemoneuontos tes Surias Kureniou.’ “hegemon,” Which the authors of the English bible have translated “Governor.”

We know that in the time of Caligula, the African administration was divided in such a way, that the military power, and with it the foreign policy of the Province, was controlled by a Lieutenant of Augustus, while the internal affairs of the Province were left to the ordinary governor, a Proconsul.

Quirinius was a special Lieutenant of Augustus, who conducted the war against the Homonadenses, while Varus, the Governor, administered the ordinary affairs of Syria. The duties of Quirinius might be described by calling him dux in Latin, and the Greek equivalent is necessarily and correctly hegemon, as Luke has it.

Around the year of 6 B. C., the Governors of Galatia and Syria were involved in the construction of a system of military roads and garrison cities. They had a major problem. The Homonadenses had taken control of a Roman client nation located in the Taurus mountains which traversed the centre of these operations. Syria and Galatia would normally be required to intervene but Galatia had no army and Varus had no military experience. Whereas Quirinius was a general and famous for having quelled the Marmaridea rebellion in Cilicia (Libya) in BC.14. Quirinius was the one who Caesar Augustus sent to conquer the Homonadenses nation. This campaign had to have been implemented from Syria, as the Taurus Mountains, marked the northern limit of the Syrian plain from where Quirinius would have undoubtedly launched his campaign.

It necessarily follows that in 6-5 B.C., General Quirinius dealt with the Homonadenses situation as Augustus' vicegerent or special Lieutenant, whilst Varus attended to the internal administration of Syria.

As Herod the Great died in 4 B.C. believing that Jesus was over 12 months old and ordering the death of all the male children two years and below, or all who were born in and after 6 B.C., we can now safely assume that Jesus was born in 6 B.C., when the census of ENROLLMENT was taken in Judaea, while General Quirinius in 6-5 B.C., was dealing with the Homonadenses in the Taurus Mountains, which marked the northern limit of the Syrian plain from where Quirinius would have undoubtedly launched his campaign against the Homonadenses.

This reveals that the census of Israel in 6.B.C, when Quirinius was on a campaign in Syria as Augustus’ Vicegerent, was not an exercise in tax collecting, but an exercise in information gathering, which was a census of the entire Roman Empire, decreed by Caesar Augustus, It would have taken a few years to implement and complete this. It was decreed in 8 BC. and the completed set of documents, which registered the loyalty of Roman citizens and people of note in subject nations to Caesar Augustus, was presented to him in 3 BC.

The following is Augustus' own account: Page 1. "during my sixth term as consul (BC.28), I, along with my comrade Marcus Agrippa, commanded a census to be taken of the people. I directed a lustrum, the first in forty-one years, in which 4,063,000 Roman citizens were counted. And once again, with imperial authority, I single handedly authorized a lustrum when the consuls of Rome were Gaius Censorinus and Gaius Asinius (8 B.C.), during which time 4,233,000 Roman citizens were counted."

In Luke’s day there was no B.C. (Before Christ) or C.E. (Christian Era). So, in what year did Luke say that the census of Caesar Augustus was held in Israel? [ANSWER] In the year that General Quirinius, as Augustus’ Vicegerent or special Lieutenant, was on a campaign in Syria dealing with the Homonadenses situation, which we now know as the year 6 B.C. two years before the death of Herod the Great.

Sooda wrote…….. 3. There is no record of Romans requiring people to return to their ancestral home; people were registered where they lived, not where their ancestors came from.

The Anointed....... Early in the twentieth century, a papyrus was discovered which contained an edict by G. Vibius Maximus, the Roman governor of Egypt, stating: Since the enrollment by households is approaching, it is necessary to command all who for any reason are out of their own district to return to their own home, in order to perform the usual business of the taxation… (Cobern, C.M. 1929. The New Archeological Discoveries and their Bearing upon the New Testament. New York and London: Funk & Wagnalls, p. 47; Unger, M.F. 1962. Archaeology and the New Testament. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, p. 64).

The same papyrus also confirms Luke’s assertion that a man had to bring his family with him when he traveled to his place of ancestry in order to be properly counted by the Roman authorities (Lk. 2:5). The document reads: I register Pakebkis, the son born to me and my wife, Taasies and Taopis in the 10th year of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus Imperator [Emperor], and request that the name of my aforesaid son Pakeb[k] is to be entered on the list” (Boyd, R.T. 1991. World’s Bible Handbook. Grand Rapids, MI: World Publishing, p. 415).

This sheds light on why Joseph had to bring his highly pregnant wife along with him when he went to Bethlehem. Such discoveries caused the late George A. Barton, Ph.D., Professor of Biblical Literature and Semitic Languages at Bryn Mawr and former Director of the American School of Oriental Research in Jerusalem, to comment: Luke’s statement, that Joseph went up from Nazareth to Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to enroll himself with Mary (Luke 2:4, 5), turns out to be in exact accord with the governmental regulations as we now know them from the papyri.

Nighty night Grandma Sooda, catch you later.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Sooda wrote……. 1. When Augustus issued this degree, Judea was not part of the Roman province, but was a client kingdom ruled by Herod the Great. It would therefore not have been part of any Roman census.

The Anointed...….. A vassal state within the Roman Empire, was a kingdom that had been conquered by Rome, who then chose a client/puppet King to rule that vassal state in the manner as prescribed by the ruling power which in this case was Rome.

Herod did not rule a free and autonomous country. Although he was allowed to tax the people of that country, but Certain limitations were put on the Kings of all vassal states, they could neither wage independent wars or make treaties, plus other limitations, and if they overstepped those limits they were immediately sacked by the ruling power, which was Rome, and another puppet put in their place.

Semi-autonomous kingdoms within the Roman Empire, such as Judea, which was under the Roman puppet King, ‘Herod the Great’, were expected to maintain and support the continued growth of those kingdoms, and the funds needed for those projects were the responsibility of the king, who taxed that kingdom. Rome did not tax the Israelites until after the death of Herod the Great.

During his reign, Herod the Great built many massive fortresses and splendid cities, amphitheatres, and hippodromes for the Grecian games inaugurated in honour of Augustus, but his most grandiose creation was the Temple in Jerusalem. The taxes needed to support these extravagant projects was a bone of contention with the Jewish population.

In 63 BC, Antipater sided with Rome when Pompey invaded Palestine and in 47 BC Julius Caesar whose mistress Cleopatra was to later bear to him a son ‘Caesarion,’ appointed Antipater procurator of Judea and bestowed Roman citizenship upon him, an honour that was inherited by the Macedonian’s descendant, ‘Herod the Great.’

It was in 37 BC, that the Roman senate nominated Herod as the King of Judea, a position he held for 32 years. Even after the defeat by Octavian, (who was to be later known as Caesar Augustus,) over his good friend Mark Antony at Actium in 31 BC in their struggle for the throne of the assassinated Julius Caesar, Octavian who knew of Herod’s love and earlier support for his now deceased friend “Mark Antony,” never the less knew that Herod was the one who would best rule Israel as he himself would want it to be ruled, and Herod and Augustus were to later become friends.

Most people who wish to attack and denigrate the Holy scriptures, will say that the Roman census which was taken in Israel at the time of the birth of Jesus, was the census of Quirinius, and of course it wasn’t.

Sooda wrote…….2. Quirinius was governor of Syria from 6 to 12 AD, and not during the reign of Herod, who died in 4 BC, where both Luke and Matthew date the birth. The governor of Syria then was either C. Sentius Saturninus (9–6 BC) or possibly Quinctilius Varus (6–4 BC).

The Anointed...…. The KJV, is riddled with translation errors….. In Luke 2:1; 2: 2; 2: 3; 2: 5. And Acts 5: 37; the Greek word “Apographe,” is erroneously translated as “TAX.” But according to Young’s Analytical Concordance, it means, “A writing off or Register.”

The Living New Testament….. Luke 2: 1; About this time Caesar Augustus, the Roman Emperor, decreed that a census should be taken throughout the nation. Luke 2: 2; this census was taken when Quirinius was “hegemon” in Syria. Luke 2: 3; Everyone was required to return to his ancestral home for this ‘REGISTATION.”

RSV…… 2: 1; In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be ENROLLED. Luke 2: 2; This was the first ENROLLMENT, when Quirinius was “hegemon” in Syria.

Luke does not specifically state what the Roman office held by Quirinius actually was when the first registration or enrolment was made in Judaea in 6 B.C. But in reference to the position he held, Luke uses the Greek word “hegemoneuontos tes Surias Kureniou.’ “hegemon,” Which the authors of the English bible have translated “Governor.”

We know that in the time of Caligula, the African administration was divided in such a way, that the military power, and with it the foreign policy of the Province, was controlled by a Lieutenant of Augustus, while the internal affairs of the Province were left to the ordinary governor, a Proconsul.

Quirinius was a special Lieutenant of Augustus, who conducted the war against the Homonadenses, while Varus, the Governor, administered the ordinary affairs of Syria. The duties of Quirinius might be described by calling him dux in Latin, and the Greek equivalent is necessarily and correctly hegemon, as Luke has it.

Around the year of 6 B. C., the Governors of Galatia and Syria were involved in the construction of a system of military roads and garrison cities. They had a major problem. The Homonadenses had taken control of a Roman client nation located in the Taurus mountains which traversed the centre of these operations. Syria and Galatia would normally be required to intervene but Galatia had no army and Varus had no military experience. Whereas Quirinius was a general and famous for having quelled the Marmaridea rebellion in Cilicia (Libya) in BC.14. Quirinius was the one who Caesar Augustus sent to conquer the Homonadenses nation. This campaign had to have been implemented from Syria, as the Taurus Mountains, marked the northern limit of the Syrian plain from where Quirinius would have undoubtedly launched his campaign.

It necessarily follows that in 6-5 B.C., General Quirinius dealt with the Homonadenses situation as Augustus' vicegerent or special Lieutenant, whilst Varus attended to the internal administration of Syria.

As Herod the Great died in 4 B.C. believing that Jesus was over 12 months old and ordering the death of all the male children two years and below, or all who were born in and after 6 B.C., we can now safely assume that Jesus was born in 6 B.C., when the census of ENROLLMENT was taken in Judaea, while General Quirinius in 6-5 B.C., was dealing with the Homonadenses in the Taurus Mountains, which marked the northern limit of the Syrian plain from where Quirinius would have undoubtedly launched his campaign against the Homonadenses.

This reveals that the census of Israel in 6.B.C, when Quirinius was on a campaign in Syria as Augustus’ Vicegerent, was not an exercise in tax collecting, but an exercise in information gathering, which was a census of the entire Roman Empire, decreed by Caesar Augustus, It would have taken a few years to implement and complete this. It was decreed in 8 BC. and the completed set of documents, which registered the loyalty of Roman citizens and people of note in subject nations to Caesar Augustus, was presented to him in 3 BC.

The following is Augustus' own account: Page 1. "during my sixth term as consul (BC.28), I, along with my comrade Marcus Agrippa, commanded a census to be taken of the people. I directed a lustrum, the first in forty-one years, in which 4,063,000 Roman citizens were counted. And once again, with imperial authority, I single handedly authorized a lustrum when the consuls of Rome were Gaius Censorinus and Gaius Asinius (8 B.C.), during which time 4,233,000 Roman citizens were counted."

In Luke’s day there was no B.C. (Before Christ) or C.E. (Christian Era). So, in what year did Luke say that the census of Caesar Augustus was held in Israel? [ANSWER] In the year that General Quirinius, as Augustus’ Vicegerent or special Lieutenant, was on a campaign in Syria dealing with the Homonadenses situation, which we now know as the year 6 B.C. two years before the death of Herod the Great.

Sooda wrote…….. 3. There is no record of Romans requiring people to return to their ancestral home; people were registered where they lived, not where their ancestors came from.

The Anointed....... Early in the twentieth century, a papyrus was discovered which contained an edict by G. Vibius Maximus, the Roman governor of Egypt, stating: Since the enrollment by households is approaching, it is necessary to command all who for any reason are out of their own district to return to their own home, in order to perform the usual business of the taxation… (Cobern, C.M. 1929. The New Archeological Discoveries and their Bearing upon the New Testament. New York and London: Funk & Wagnalls, p. 47; Unger, M.F. 1962. Archaeology and the New Testament. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, p. 64).

The same papyrus also confirms Luke’s assertion that a man had to bring his family with him when he traveled to his place of ancestry in order to be properly counted by the Roman authorities (Lk. 2:5). The document reads: I register Pakebkis, the son born to me and my wife, Taasies and Taopis in the 10th year of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus Imperator [Emperor], and request that the name of my aforesaid son Pakeb[k] is to be entered on the list” (Boyd, R.T. 1991. World’s Bible Handbook. Grand Rapids, MI: World Publishing, p. 415).

This sheds light on why Joseph had to bring his highly pregnant wife along with him when he went to Bethlehem. Such discoveries caused the late George A. Barton, Ph.D., Professor of Biblical Literature and Semitic Languages at Bryn Mawr and former Director of the American School of Oriental Research in Jerusalem, to comment: Luke’s statement, that Joseph went up from Nazareth to Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to enroll himself with Mary (Luke 2:4, 5), turns out to be in exact accord with the governmental regulations as we now know them from the papyri.

Nighty night Grandma Sooda, catch you later.

Why up from Nazareth to Bethlehem?
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Why up from Nazareth to Bethlehem?

Why bother to answer such an ignorant question? When all who have read and believe the Scriptures, or have read the previous post in relation to the edict by G. Vibius Maximus, the Roman governor of Egypt, know why.

Only those who lack the ability to comprehend that which they have read, would be so ignorant as to ask that question.

Nighty night once again grandma, it's after midnight here, and I am off to hit the weeping willow and plough the deep.
 
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