Toying with the Truth

[Native]

I couldn't help but notice that science has exposed a fundamental truth in nature revealed as early as in Chapter 1 of Genesis.

1) Modern science claims a creation via Big Bang.
2) The biblical interpretation claims a 6 days creation "on God´s Words".

I say:
The Big Bang is utterly nonsense - and the biblical interpretation is misunderstood. The "6 days should be "6 stages of creation" and not 6 days and if taking the biblical contents seriously and factual, it doesn´t speak of the creation of the entire Universe, but "only" about the world picture in the ancient times, which, at the largest, includes our Milky Way and the Solar System.

Genesis 1:2 "Now the Earth was without form" - inchoate state of quantum entanglement

Here we have the biblical problem with "the two time creation of the Earth" interpretation. If studying Comparative Mythology and the numerous cultural Stories of Creation, several of these describes the primordial conditions of what later became our Milky Way and the Solar System.

Before any formation of "firm matter and firm forms", different cosmic clouds (the biblical "heavenly waters") were flowing and where they flow together in a swirling center, firm matter was formed via the influence of light (God). Read for instant the Egyptian Ogdoad, where Amun-Ra represents the central light of creation in our galaxy. The telling of this primeval story doesn´t speak of "planet Earth", but of the general creation of "firm matter and forms". In the Ogdoad, the Universe is stated to be eternal and the vey same goes for all the elements in their basal stage which undergoes eternal formation, dissolution and re-formation. No Big Bang here and no suddenly creation because it is an eternal cycle of formation.

The Egyptian story of creation set the specific creational stages to the pre-formation and factual creation of our Milky Way with the descriptions in the Ogdoad and with the "very complex relationship between Amun-Ra and goddess Hathor" who resembles the Milky Way contours on the southern hemisphere where the center of the Milky Way is located in the star constellation of Sagittarius. Read more about Goddess Hathor.

My conclusion are:
The Big Bang is non sense. Everything can logically not come from nothing.

The ordinary interpretation of the biblical creation is misunderstood (and much too personalized) and it´s cosmological contents are hugely understated.

As a Comparative Mythologist and Natural Philosopher, I certainly would set my money on the many cultural Stories of Creation when it comes to gaining real cosmological knowledge of the creation.

 

[Ingledsva]

..."Hamlet: There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies." - William Shakespeare

By the way - GCVP - if I haven't said so already, -

Welcome to the Jungle. Have fun exploring.

*

 

[omega2xx]

The word "instantaneous" does not appear in Gen 1. You are reading that into it.

God said___ and there was___, seem pretty instantaneous to me.

 

[omega2xx]

1) Modern science claims a creation via Big Bang.
2) The biblical interpretation claims a 6 days creation "on God´s Words".

I say:
The Big Bang is utterly nonsense - and the biblical interpretation is misunderstood. The "6 days should be "6 stages of creation" and not 6 days and if taking the biblical contents seriously and factual, it doesn´t speak of the creation of the entire Universe, but "only" about the world picture in the ancient times, which, at the largest, includes our Milky Way and the Solar System.

Any time a number is associated with "day" in the Bible it ALWAYS means a day as we know it today. Since God is omnipotent. nothing would be impossible for Him.

Here we have the biblical problem with "the two time creation of the Earth" interpretation. If studying Comparative Mythology and the numerous cultural Stories of Creation, several of these describes the primordial conditions of what later became our Milky Way and the Solar System.

Since there is no "two time creation of the earth" in the Bible, that myth comes from not understanding, not from fact. No myth created anything, let alone the milky way

Before any formation of "firm matter and firm forms", different cosmic clouds (the biblical "heavenly waters") were flowing and where they flow together in a swirling center, firm matter was formed via the influence of light (God). Read for instant the Egyptian Ogdoad, where Amun-Ra represents the central light of creation in our galaxy. The telling of this primeval story doesn´t speak of "planet Earth", but of the general creation of "firm matter and forms". In the Ogdoad, the Universe is stated to be eternal and the vey same goes for all the elements in their basal stage which undergoes eternal formation, dissolution and re-formation. No Big Bang here and no suddenly creation because it is an eternal cycle of formation.

In the myths you mention, where did the clouds and waters originate?

The Egyptian story of creation set the specific creational stages to the pre-formation and factual creation of our Milky Way with the descriptions in the Ogdoad and with the "very complex relationship between Amun-Ra and goddess Hathor" who resembles the Milky Way contours on the southern hemisphere where the center of the Milky Way is located in the star constellation of Sagittarius. Read more about Goddess Hathor.

It seems strange to use known myths to explain anything, let alone the universe.

My conclusion are:
The Big Bang is non sense. Everything can logically not come from nothing.

Good point.

The ordinary interpretation of the biblical creation is misunderstood (and much too personalized) and it´s cosmological contents are hugely understated.

Right. It is misunderstood by those who do not believe it, which is fine if you have a better explnaion for the origin of the universe.

As a Comparative Mythologist and Natural Philosopher, I certainly would set my money on the many cultural Stories of Creation when it comes to gaining real cosmological knowledge of the creation.

No cosmological knowledge can explain the origin of matter, life and energy, without a true omnipotent deity.


Human beings must be known to be loved; but Divine beings must be loved to be known.
Blaise Pascal

 

[fantome profane]

God said___ and there was___, seem pretty instantaneous to me.

I asked for a coffee and the waitress brought it to me.

The service was ok, but hardly instantaneous.

 

[omega2xx]

I asked for a coffee and the waitress brought it to me.

The service was ok, but hardly instantaneous.

Hardly an accurate comparison.


Human beings must be known to be loved; but Divine beings must be loved to be known. Blaise Pascal

 

[fantome profane]

Hardly an accurate comparison.


Human beings must be known to be loved; but Divine beings must be loved to be known. Blaise Pascal

I am only looking at what the text says. And it does not say instantaneous. And simply stating that two events happened (i.e. God said___ and there was___,) does not imply that they happened instantaneously.

 

[Kemosloby]

With all the current hype about 'quantum entanglement', Bell's Theorem, quantum computing, wavefunction collapse, Einstein being disproved on at least one count and so on -

With all due respect to science and scientists (I teach it, incidentally),

I couldn't help but notice that science has exposed a fundamental truth in nature revealed as early as in Chapter 1 of Genesis.

And that is how God's Word instantaneously executes his commands. (By instantaneous I wish to say - faster than any known physical process operating in the physical universe. We cannot transport matter or communicate by sending signals faster than than the speed of light. But apparently quantum 'detanglement' is faster than that.)

Let me clarify.

Genesis 1:2 "Now the Earth was without form" - inchoate state of quantum entanglement

Now just one example of an "assume this form" command:

Gen 1:24 "And God said - 'Let the land produce living creatures...'" - issuance of command

Gen 1:24ff "...And it was so." - instantaneous execution of God's command - corresponding to instantaneous wavefunction collapse and resolution of quantum entangled state - what Roger Hanson's ingenious 2015 Delft TU experiment observed, thus proving John Bell's 1964 theorem.

What I wish to say is this is not fantasy - what scientists observed was with electrons but it can be scaled up to any amount or type of matter - the mechanism whereby God can give form to an entire universe instantaneously already exists in the universe! This is what science has discovered. Science's new toy is nothing less than an ancient property of the universe set in place when God spoke and the inchoate formless universe assumed form.

"Hamlet: There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies." - William Shakespeare

Yes I agree when God says let the be light and there was light, it is instantaneous. And when the woman believed Jesus and Jesus said her daughter was healed her daughter was healed the moment he said it. As far as the science theory your talking about though, I haven't a clue. But if you can do miracles give me your email.

 

[David T]

'Nature is the executor of God's laws' : Galileo

That is identical to the idea of laws of physics and is a rather curious way of understanding physics. Do you actually work in physics in any applied fashion?

 

[David T]

My conclusion are:
The Big Bang is non sense. Everything can logically not come from nothing.

That's one interpretation of the big bang not is the big bang. You understand the problem with the interpretation but nullify the event but the event is independent of the interpretation.

 

[David T]

The landscape, nature inspired the text, the text never ever determines the landscape in science and religion absolute..

 

[omega2xx]

I am only looking at what the text says. And it does not say instantaneous. And simply stating that two events happened (i.e. God said___ and there was___,) does not imply that they happened instantaneously.

I think it does, but if you don't, that's fine with me.

 

[Kapalika]

With all the current hype about 'quantum entanglement', Bell's Theorem, quantum computing, wavefunction collapse, Einstein being disproved on at least one count and so on -

With all due respect to science and scientists (I teach it, incidentally),

I couldn't help but notice that science has exposed a fundamental truth in nature revealed as early as in Chapter 1 of Genesis.

And that is how God's Word instantaneously executes his commands. (By instantaneous I wish to say - faster than any known physical process operating in the physical universe. We cannot transport matter or communicate by sending signals faster than than the speed of light. But apparently quantum 'detanglement' is faster than that.)

Let me clarify.

Genesis 1:2 "Now the Earth was without form" - inchoate state of quantum entanglement

Now just one example of an "assume this form" command:

Gen 1:24 "And God said - 'Let the land produce living creatures...'" - issuance of command

Gen 1:24ff "...And it was so." - instantaneous execution of God's command - corresponding to instantaneous wavefunction collapse and resolution of quantum entangled state - what Roger Hanson's ingenious 2015 Delft TU experiment observed, thus proving John Bell's 1964 theorem.

What I wish to say is this is not fantasy - what scientists observed was with electrons but it can be scaled up to any amount or type of matter - the mechanism whereby God can give form to an entire universe instantaneously already exists in the universe! This is what science has discovered. Science's new toy is nothing less than an ancient property of the universe set in place when God spoke and the inchoate formless universe assumed form.

"Hamlet: There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies." - William Shakespeare

I don't claim to teach science, but physics and astronomy in particular were always interests of mine and I filled a medium sized bookcase with my collection over the years. I own a book specifically on quantum entanglement as it's sole subject. I don't have any kind of technical understanding that goes into the mathematics but I understand the range of those subjects conceptually. I've read something as simple as books by Brian Greene to plain old textbooks to something insanely confusing (when the math comes in) like Roger Penrose's work.

With all that said, I get this distinct feeling that you don't totally grasp what quantum anything is. Is there currently hype about collapsing wave functions? Maybe I don't fully appreciate the history of quantum mechanics but it's always been my understanding that the theory hasn't really had much change in the last 50+ years due to technological constraints. Things like quantum computers have been worked on for longer than I've been alive IIRC (20 something odd years). And how was Eienstien proven wrong? In what sense? The only thing I'm aware of he ever seriously messed up on was his thoughts on the Cosmological Constant.

Also, your idea of the Earth being "without form" would imply that god can't observe it, which can't be true since he is all-knowing, meaning it can't be in a superstate. Also large objects can't be in superstates that's why things stay in one place unlike leptons who like to be in two places at once. I remember reading an article in Discover magazine over a decade ago where Roger Penrose proposed that the neligable amount of gravity present in larger structures is what caused objects to settle into a single state. His argument was very convincing, more so than anything like the many worlds view.

Also I would point out that Genesis is better understood when you understand the mythology of the time. The "Earth" here isn't the planet but is literal dry ground. To the ancient Jewish people there was the Abyss/void, this is what the "face of the deep" and "face of the water". That is why the earth was "void", there wasn't any sky or land yet. The creation of the Heavens and the Earth isn't creating the planet, it's Yahweh coming to create the literal dry land and literal heavens above it, he didn't create the Abyss from which he worked:

This actually goes to some other mythology about the Leviathan that dwelled in the watery Abyss before Yahweh created the Heavens (sky) and the earth (dry land). I've heard it said that the Leviathan was the only thing Yahweh feared. Presumably this was due to it existing in the abyss's water long before he separated the waters with land and sky. Getting off that tangent what I do know is that in the ancient, original world view Yahweh did not create the Universe but just transmuted/transformed what was there as I just explained.

What I wish to say is this is not fantasy - what scientists observed was with electrons but it can be scaled up to any amount or type of matter

Except it can't/doesn't. I mentioned Penrose's idea as to why earlier, but no matter what explanation you use the chances of every single particle experiencing some kind of quantum weirdness, all the black holes in the Universe would literally evaporate before you would ever see it happen. In Quantum Mechanics being probability based technically anything is possible but realistically after a certain point it's not really in reality even if the math says that it's some stupidly out there chance like the one I just mentioned. In my opinion that is more of a limit of the language being used (human invented Mathematics) and not a reflection on the fundamental nature of reality and of what is and isn't possible.

For another explanation/view as to why it won't happen:

Because the limit of quantum mechanics is classical mechanics. That is, when you put together more and more quantum particles, the expected value of the result is the same as the Newtonian result. And for any scale of particles that you can see, even with a microscope, there are many, many, many particles (on the order of 1020" role="presentation" style="display: inline; line-height: normal; word-spacing: normal; word-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; border: 0px; padding: 0px; margin: 0px; position: relative;">10201020, so you'd expect the value to be very near the average.

Mathematically, this is proven in the Ehrenfest theorem. Informally, you can see it in the Heisenberg uncertainty principle:
ΔxΔp>ℏ2" role="presentation" style="display: inline; line-height: normal; word-spacing: normal; word-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; border: 0px; padding: 0px; margin: 0px; position: relative;">ΔxΔp>ℏ2ΔxΔp>ℏ2
The value of ℏ" role="presentation" style="display: inline; line-height: normal; word-spacing: normal; word-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; border: 0px; padding: 0px; margin: 0px; position: relative;">ℏℏ is very, very small, 6.6x10^-34 J-s. Strictly, this is just a lower limit, but it shows you just how tiny that lower limit is. You can't expect to observe uncertainties this small on a scale or ruler.

The best explanation of how this works, I believe, is in Richard Feynman's QED. I can't do his discussion justice in this space, so I strongly recommend getting his book: it's the best elaboration of quantum mechanics for the non-scientist I've ever seen.

https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-we-see-quantum-weirdness-in-the-everyday-world

I'm aware that it's a popular thing to try to make science fit your religious beliefs but it works least of all when you don't fully grasp the concept you are trying to borrow or don't understand the original author's intention of meaning in the scripture you are reading.

Edit: book on quantum entanglement I mentioned earlier:

The God Effect

 

[viole]

With all the current hype about 'quantum entanglement', Bell's Theorem, quantum computing, wavefunction collapse, Einstein being disproved on at least one count and so on -

With all due respect to science and scientists (I teach it, incidentally),

I couldn't help but notice that science has exposed a fundamental truth in nature revealed as early as in Chapter 1 of Genesis.

And that is how God's Word instantaneously executes his commands. (By instantaneous I wish to say - faster than any known physical process operating in the physical universe. We cannot transport matter or communicate by sending signals faster than than the speed of light. But apparently quantum 'detanglement' is faster than that.)

Let me clarify.

Genesis 1:2 "Now the Earth was without form" - inchoate state of quantum entanglement

Now just one example of an "assume this form" command:

Gen 1:24 "And God said - 'Let the land produce living creatures...'" - issuance of command

Gen 1:24ff "...And it was so." - instantaneous execution of God's command - corresponding to instantaneous wavefunction collapse and resolution of quantum entangled state - what Roger Hanson's ingenious 2015 Delft TU experiment observed, thus proving John Bell's 1964 theorem.

What I wish to say is this is not fantasy - what scientists observed was with electrons but it can be scaled up to any amount or type of matter - the mechanism whereby God can give form to an entire universe instantaneously already exists in the universe! This is what science has discovered. Science's new toy is nothing less than an ancient property of the universe set in place when God spoke and the inchoate formless universe assumed form.

"Hamlet: There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies." - William Shakespeare

If you teach science, you should know that you cannot send any type of information faster than light. With or without entanglement or quantum physics.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kapalika]

If you teach science, you should know that you cannot send any type of information faster than light. With or without entanglement or quantum physics.

Ciao

- viole

When you do certain things to one of an entangled pair the other reacts to it instantly and it breaks the entanglement. This has been experimentally verified and it isn't in question by the mainstream scientific community. It doesn't break any physical laws since nothing ever actually travels the distance.

So you can send information faster than light, you just don't send it how we normally think of it. In the book I mentioned earlier, The God Particle the author even suggests that this could potentially cause messages to be received before they are sent and talks about a novel that had that happen. Right now though we can't do much other than entangle a few sub atomic particles and separate them more than a few miles for experiments. So all that speculation is not worth much other than as plot devices for science fiction.

There is a lot of mystery around these types of phenomena, but they are real. It's why unfortunately many like to inject supernatural beliefs into it, even when it's based on misunderstandings about quantum mechanics.

 

[viole]

When you do certain things to one of an entangled pair the other reacts to it instantly and it breaks the entanglement. This has been experimentally verified and it isn't in question by the mainstream scientific community. It doesn't break any physical laws since nothing ever actually travels the distance.

I know it has been validated it. I also know that there are no hidden variables that might render the process classical.

I do not question it at all. I am actually pretty acquainted with the math involved to describe it.

So you can send information faster than light, you just don't send it how we normally think of it. In the book I mentioned earlier, The God Particle the author even suggests that this could potentially cause messages to be received before they are sent and talks about a novel that had that happen. Right now though we can't do much other than entangle a few sub atomic particles and separate them more than a few miles for experiments. So all that speculation is not worth much other than as plot devices for science fiction.

I am afraid you cannot. There is even a theorem that proves that, under the assumption that QM theory is correct.

The mistake people do is to think of two entangled particles as a set of two independent things. It is not. It is like one system that oscillates between two states: up-down and down-up. Measuring one, necessarily determines the other. No spooky actions of any sort.

A sort of system subject to contraints. Like a rigid body. Guess what, by measuring the state of a few particles of a big rigid body I will determine immediately the state of the other zillions.

Is that useful to send instantaneous information to distant parts of that rigid body? I do not see how.

There is a lot of mystery around these types of phenomena, but they are real. It's why unfortunately many like to inject supernatural beliefs into it, even when it's based on misunderstandings about quantum mechanics.

There is a mystery only if we insist to push our classical intuition to things that are not classical. Once we realize that, there is no mystery left.

Don't forget. Our brain evolved to survive. And survivals does not require to have a natural intuition about these things. After all, predators and food are very well approximated by an intuition that is very classical.

And that is why they look like mysteries, because our natural beliefs building infrastructure is not geared towards having an intuition of what is really true. It is geared only towards having an intuition of what is good enough to survive the day.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Quantum!

So...God!

 

[paarsurrey]

The word "instantaneous" does not appear in Gen 1. You are reading that into it.

I agree with one.
Some people in their fervor see words in the text which are not there, at all.
Regards

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

With all the current hype about 'quantum entanglement', Bell's Theorem, quantum computing, wavefunction collapse, Einstein being disproved on at least one count and so on -

With all due respect to science and scientists (I teach it, incidentally),

I couldn't help but notice that science has exposed a fundamental truth in nature revealed as early as in Chapter 1 of Genesis.

And that is how God's Word instantaneously executes his commands. (By instantaneous I wish to say - faster than any known physical process operating in the physical universe. We cannot transport matter or communicate by sending signals faster than than the speed of light. But apparently quantum 'detanglement' is faster than that.)

Let me clarify.

Genesis 1:2 "Now the Earth was without form" - inchoate state of quantum entanglement

Now just one example of an "assume this form" command:

Gen 1:24 "And God said - 'Let the land produce living creatures...'" - issuance of command

Gen 1:24ff "...And it was so." - instantaneous execution of God's command - corresponding to instantaneous wavefunction collapse and resolution of quantum entangled state - what Roger Hanson's ingenious 2015 Delft TU experiment observed, thus proving John Bell's 1964 theorem.

What I wish to say is this is not fantasy - what scientists observed was with electrons but it can be scaled up to any amount or type of matter - the mechanism whereby God can give form to an entire universe instantaneously already exists in the universe! This is what science has discovered. Science's new toy is nothing less than an ancient property of the universe set in place when God spoke and the inchoate formless universe assumed form.

"Hamlet: There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies." - William Shakespeare

What's your point, and what does this have to do with toying with the Truth? Quantum entanglement merely indicates that quantum transactions take place in an "external" or parallel timeless environment in which our universe is suspended, for lack of a better phrase.

Where was Einstein disproved?

 

[Polymath257]

First, Einstein was wrong about certain aspects of quantum mechanics. In particular, he expected the results of the EPR experiment to be different than what actually happened when the experiment was done. The correlations that Einstein saw as 'spooky action at a distance' were, in fact, verified.

That said, quantum entanglement does NOT allow for faster-then-light communication. If you set up an EPR experiment (as Arrow did), then both ends of the experiment (which measure the two entangled particles) have random outcomes. it is only when the two sets of data from the two ends are brought together that the *correlation* between the two data sets can be seen. Nothing that is done on one end can change the apparent randomness at the other end. because of this, there is no possibility of faster-than-light transmission of information.
To say otherwise is to *completely* misunderstand how quantum mechanics works.

The upshot of the experiments concerning Bell's inequalities is that you cannot have a local, realist theory that agrees with what we know about the universe. On the other hand, a local theory is demanded by special relativity since faster than light information transfer implies causality violation (essentially, that things can cause events before they exist). The upshot is that any valid theory for the universe has to be non-realist: things cannot have definite properties at all times. And, in fact, because of entanglement, quantum mechanics is NOT such a theory. Quantum particles do NOT have definite properties: they have probabilities for the values of certain properties. Those probabilities are correlated in certain situations (like entanglement), but any particular event is undetermined. The absence of entanglement does NOT eliminate the probabilistic nature of QM.