ToS "vrs" Independent Setian... debate thread.

[blackout]

I'm hoping we can keep all Setian ToS/nonToS discussion to this thread.

If another thread sparks this debate,
might we all agree to move it here?

I believe this will raise the quality level of other threads,
that might otherwise be completely derailed.

I hope there might be a general consensus in this matter.
It can be so disruptive where it really doesn't have to be.

Let's just take it here instead.

 

[Eric Cow]

from the My Setianism thread:

"It seems there is a regular influx of new posters to the setian forum,
especially lately since Magister Adams has joined us."

Control the one - control the many.

I thought the ToS'ers taught well behaved mannerism, courtesy, and respect as an aspect of Xeper. Some of the posts by Mr. Adams are a bit taunting IMO. Nice video artist but come on Sir, you are better than this. How about showing the rest of us your best!

 

[blackout]

I certainly hope your comment was not directed at me in any way.


Why do you quote me? If you have something to say to someone else?

 

[KHPR]

Control the one - control the many.

I thought the ToS'ers taught well behaved mannerism, courtesy, and respect as an aspect of Xeper. Some of the posts by Mr. Adams are a bit taunting IMO. Nice video artist but come on Sir, you are better than this. How about showing the rest of us your best!

Eric,

I've been quite well mannered. I don't taunt, I strike back when someone take a swing and do so in as polite a way as possible since this is a public forum.

Xeper,
Magister Robert Adams

 

[Eric Cow]

I certainly hope your comment was not directed at me in any way.


Why do you quote me? If you have something to say to someone else?

Sorry UltraViolet, I should have been more clear. My comment is not directed at you in any way. Since you brought up the point regarding Mr. Adams, and the increase of posts since he recently joined, I quoted you because you are not alone in noticing this. And, thanks for starting this thread. Honestly the things he quibbles over do seem to set people off. He knows how to find and push peoples buttons then he says something like he's innocent and only defending his religion. That's a noble position and when he goes about it in a better manner he'll diffuse the emotion he bolsters. The argument methods he uses do seem to paint his Temple in an unflattering light. IMO.

 

[blackout]

Sorry UltraViolet, I should have been more clear. My comment is not directed at you in any way. Since you brought up the point regarding Mr. Adams, and the increase of posts since he recently joined, I quoted you because you are not alone in noticing this. And, thanks for starting this thread. Honestly the things he quibbles over do seem to set people off. He knows how to find and push peoples buttons then he says something like he's innocent and only defending his religion. That's a noble position and when he goes about it in a better manner he'll diffuse the emotion he bolsters. The argument methods he uses do seem to paint his Temple in an unflattering light. IMO.

Also an increase in the number of newcomers to the setian forum.
(both Setian, non Setian, and undeclaired)
Thus my reason for posting DIR rule 10.

I really think specific references in this thread would be helpful also.
In other words.... "so and so said this... *quote*....
in regards to thus and such about the temple"...
and this is how I interpreted it... (or whatever).
Vague complaints hardly say/point to anything tangible or discussable.
(at least for the rest of us)
I'm tired of the quibbling all around to be honest.
Perhaps I am hoping for something unrealistic in this forum.
i guess time will tell.
I'm in here to learn personally.
And learn to share my own experience of Xeper and Dark Flame effectively.
If this forum is going to be about constant quibbling
over the Temple, or personalities, or anything else,
(unrelated to Xeper, magick, technique, Setian philosophy/vocabulary etc)
I mySelf will have no reason to come frequent here.

Not that anyone would probably feel they'd lost any great asset if I stopped posting.
I know the experience of Setianism yes,
(as I understand it anyway)
but beyond my own experience
have little, if nothing to share.
I don't even know much Setian Vocabulary.

Anyway. Carry on all, as you see fit.

Just wanted to clarify.

I don't care if you're in the Temple or out.
If you have interesting things to say,
I am interested.

 

[Kori Houghton]

Sometimes humans read into a post something they expect to be there, whether it is there or not.

Personally, I am interested in Set because of my background in Thelema -- because Horus and Set can function as a bi-frontal godform. UltraViolet, you mentioned that I entered 'not religious' in the profile box. Since I am a solitary practitioner without a narrow framework, and since I understand the term 'religion' to mean a community of shared beliefs/values/history/practices, I felt my answer was appropriate. Also, my view of Thelema is that it is not a 'religion'.

I've been reading this forum on and off for about a year now, and haven't felt moved to 'rant' against the Temple of Set or make negative comments about the Temple's membership, beliefs, or practices. As Mr. Adams mentioned me 'ranting' against the Temple on usenet. I think anyone sitting at home with time to waste in checking out what I've written there will find out otherwise -- that a range of views and opinions were expressed. I will state for the record that I have never been a member of the Temple of Set or applied for membership. I did have a brief email dialog with a member of the Priesthood in 2002.

I've read quite a few Temple publications, none of which have I published, sold, or in any way distributed/shared. And -- very significant, at least to me -- I know from working with my own group that documents do not begin to tell the whole story about the initiatory work being done by the people who create and/or use those documents.

So, to sum it up: I'm not here to bash Setian practices or beliefs of any flavor. I'm not here to attack the Temple of Set. I'm not here to discourage folks from being interested in the Temple's work or from applying for membership. I felt moved to set a process in motion to correct the misstatement about the existence of the ONA. That accomplished, I'm back to lurker mode. I look forward to more of Mr. Adams' podcasts and some thoughtful threads here about Set.

Thanks for reading, and best wishes on your chosen path,
Kori

 

[blackout]

I was not implying in any way honey,
that your religion/title setting was inappropriate.

It's just, when people come into the Setian forum
and do not express their Setian "stance"...

Maybe we also could use an introductory thread.

(*Suddenly feels like Self appointed secretary. Doesn't like it.*)

 

[Valor]

I've been reading this forum on and off for about a year now, Kori

But your "join date" displays: Jan, 2010?

 

[Kori Houghton]

But your "join date" displays: Jan, 2010?

Dude, I'm afraid you don't have what it takes to become a PI.

This part of RELIGIOUS FORUMS can be read without registering, and posts show up in Google searches if they include relevant search parameters. There could be millions of lurkers on here right now. Only the webmasters know for sure.

I don't register for forums unless I intend to participate, and I tend to not participate in forums where members of the TOS hang out to avoid derailing serious discussions with comments about the badness of Kori. Believe it or not, I have ethics and try to do the right thing by treating all with respect.

Kori

 

[EtuMalku]

I may be a new Initiate in the TOS but I do understand there is a World (read;Aeon) of difference between the Horus current and the Set current.

Followers of Horus in my opinion have remained on a RHP while Setians are true LHP'ers

EM

 

[Valor]

Dude, I'm afraid you don't have what it takes to become a PI.
Kori

Then it's a good thing it's not my aim in life isn't it...snooping around on people, hiding behind the curtain, peering from the dark allies, seems to be your gig... as you admitted. Hmm... since your such a cloak-an-dagger agent, do us a favor and retreat to that ally of yours? You'll blend in to the scenery quite well, I'm sure.

 

[EtuMalku]

I think she was saying that with a wink and a nod, what is with all the uptight people here?
Using and controlling one's 'time' in a useful and productive way is key to Xeper(ing).

EM

 

[KHPR]

Personally, I am interested in Set because of my background in Thelema

Kori,

You might want to check out the Thelema Coast-to-Coast interview with members of the Temple of Set. There are lots of Thelemites in the ToS so you might get something from that talk.

Xeper,
Magister Robert Adams

 

[Kori Houghton]

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll check it out.

Kori

 

[KHPR]

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll check it out.

Kori

I'll save you the trouble, here's the link: Thelema Coast to Coast #11

Xeper,
Magister Robert Adams

 

[nightwraith666]

"Kori wrote:

1) Also, my view of Thelema is that it is not a 'religion'.

2) As Mr. Adams mentioned me 'ranting' against the Temple on usenet. I think anyone sitting at home with time to waste in checking out what I've written there will find out otherwise -- that a range of views and opinions were expressed.

3) I'm not here to attack the Temple of Set.

4) I'm not here to discourage folks from being interested in the Temple's work or from applying for membership.

5) I felt moved to set a process in motion to correct the misstatement about the existence of the ONA."

_________________________

Mr. Kori,

I enumerated statements from your post that I wanted to comment on.


1) Since you are not the founder of Thelema, you don't get to determine whether it's a religion or not. You are of course free to state your subjective view, which you have done. In this case you just happen to be in error. This reminds me of a so-called Christian picking and choosing which parts of the Bible they believe in based on what they like and rejecting the nasty bits they don't like. If you don't accept sin and the need for redemption through accepting the death and resurrection of Christ, then I hate to break it to you but you're NOT a Christian. Same goes for Thelema. You don't get to define what it is based on subjective criteria.

2) Why would you think any of us would want to waste our time? Why are you admitting that reading what you've witten is in fact a waste of time?

3) You can attack the Temple if you'd like. It's a free country. Just expect retaliation.

4) People who would allow themselves to be discouraged by you are probably not people we would want.

5) What misstatement? Based on the evidence I've gathered the ONA appears to have been one guy with a typewriter and a xerox machine.

This was an exceedingly odd post and I was compelled to address these points.

By the light of the Black Flame.

nightwraith666

 

[nightwraith666]

Ultraviolet,

By all means throw out a topic related to Setian religious philosophy and we'll discuss it.

Thanks!

nightwraith666

 

[Kori Houghton]

"Kori wrote:

1) Also, my view of Thelema is that it is not a 'religion'.

2) As Mr. Adams mentioned me 'ranting' against the Temple on usenet. I think anyone sitting at home with time to waste in checking out what I've written there will find out otherwise -- that a range of views and opinions were expressed.

3) I'm not here to attack the Temple of Set.

4) I'm not here to discourage folks from being interested in the Temple's work or from applying for membership.

5) I felt moved to set a process in motion to correct the misstatement about the existence of the ONA."

_________________________

Mr. Kori,

I'm female...there's a little Venus symbol in my site stats box. I'm not a dude, but I often get to play one on forums, or so it seems.

I enumerated statements from your post that I wanted to comment on.


1) Since you are not the founder of Thelema, you don't get to determine whether it's a religion or not. You are of course free to state your subjective view, which you have done. In this case you just happen to be in error. This reminds me of a so-called Christian picking and choosing which parts of the Bible they believe in based on what they like and rejecting the nasty bits they don't like. If you don't accept sin and the need for redemption through accepting the death and resurrection of Christ, then I hate to break it to you but you're NOT a Christian. Same goes for Thelema. You don't get to define what it is based on subjective criteria.

You're right, I'm not the founder of Thelema. Do you consider Edward Alexander 'Aleister' Crowley to be the founder of Thelema? If you do, then you should research whether or not he considered Thelema a religion. If you are already aware of what Crowley wrote on the subject but disagree with his view, that's fine. I'm not an 'Aleister Said It, Therefore I Believe It' kind of gal myself.

2) Why would you think any of us would want to waste our time? Why are you admitting that reading what you've witten is in fact a waste of time?

It is a waste of time for someone intending to find my posts on usenet to read them in context and expect them to confirm what Mr. Adams posted about me. It makes sense to me to just either believe Mr. Adams or not, depending on how much you like him...or want to like him.

3) You can attack the Temple if you'd like. It's a free country. Just expect retaliation.

Well said.

4) People who would allow themselves to be discouraged by you are probably not people we would want.

Exactly.

5) What misstatement? Based on the evidence I've gathered the ONA appears to have been one guy with a typewriter and a xerox machine.

Then you might want to visit the thread started by Mr. Adams in the general LHP area and read the posts by an ONA member there. The comment Mr. Adams made was not about how he thinks the ONA started out, but that it does not exist now. I think many in the forum have pretty much reached consensus that the ONA does exist, and that accepting this does not in any way mean acceptance of, or agreement with, their beliefs and practices.

This was an exceedingly odd post and I was compelled to address these points.

By the light of the Black Flame.

nightwraith666

Interesting. :bow:

Kori

 

[Kori Houghton]

I'll save you the trouble, here's the link: (oops I have to edit the link out - K.)

Xeper,
Magister Robert Adams

Thank you for the link. The podcast was interesting, so I will be listening to more of them. The guests from the Temple made an excellent impression...actually they made the Temple sound like a better choice than the OTO for those who are interested in doing actual work, as opposed to doing the EGC thing and publishing.

nightwraith666, you should listen to this podcast to hear what a Temple of Set Magister has to say about non-religious Thelema. :yes: