Torath Mosesh Jews and Three Seemingly Fantastical Events in Genesis

[David Davidovich]

I would like to ask Torath Mosesh Jews what their veiwpoints are on three seemingly fantastical events found in the book of Genesis. Therefore, do Torath Moseh Jews believe in:

1) A literal story of Adam and Eve, a literal 6 days of creation, and a literal talking snake?
2) A literal story of Noah's ark?
2) A literal story of the Tower of Babel?

 

[rosends]

History or Allegory? It Really Doesn’t Matter | Everyday Jewish Living | OU Life

 

[Hold]

History or Allegory? It Really Doesn’t Matter | Everyday Jewish Living | OU Life

Thank You for the link........

 

[David Davidovich]

History or Allegory? It Really Doesn’t Matter | Everyday Jewish Living | OU Life

Thanks, but no thanks because that doesn't answer my question.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I would like to ask Torath Mosesh Jews what their veiwpoints are on three seemingly fantastical events found in the book of Genesis. Therefore, do Torath Moseh Jews believe in:

1) a literal 6 days of creation?

Taking this topic by topic as always I have video on this.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I would like to ask Torath Mosesh Jews what their veiwpoints are on three seemingly fantastical events found in the book of Genesis. Therefore, do Torath Moseh Jews believe in:

1) A literal story of Adam and Eve?

Both literal and metaphor. Meaning that:

1. The Hebrew language is important to understanding what the text says. There are tons of keys in the Hebrew, that are literally impossible to translate into English, w/o a large amount of commentary on words and sentence structure.
2. The names in the Hebrew text would be better translatitered as are Awthawm (אדם) and (חוה) Hhawwah. This is important because Eve is not a Hebrew word from the text.
3. The various commentaries on this have a wide dearth of information because.....this is considered to be a story about all of humanity, even though the subject is about the first of "modern" humanity. I.e. humanity from the last ~5,000 to 6,000 years.
4. There are also Jewish sources that say that there were generation of humanity before Awthawm (Adam).
5. There are Jewish sources that state that Adam and Hhawwah were both in one body, initially and were seperated by Hashem.
6. The big point that all Torath Mosheh sources agree on is that the whole story/interaction is something that all Jews should learn from and is connected to the reason the Torah was given at Mount Sinai.

All of the above are very long stories. I will have to break down a few examples for you since trying to translate them all is very long.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I would like to ask Torath Mosesh Jews what their veiwpoints are on three seemingly fantastical events found in the book of Genesis. Therefore, do Torath Moseh Jews believe in:

2) A literal story of Noah's ark?

Yes, BUT, what you have read on this topic from Christian sources is not what Jewish sources talk about.

I am working on a paper on this. It is detailed and involved. The basic issue is that there is a LOT of Oral Torah information about the events. Many of them require looking into scientific discoveries about geological history. There are two books I know of that do a good job putting this information together. Only one of them was translated into English.

English version of the first book.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I would like to ask Torath Mosesh Jews what their veiwpoints are on three seemingly fantastical events found in the book of Genesis. Therefore, do Torath Moseh Jews believe in:

2) A literal story of the Tower of Babel?

Yes, BUT as mentioned before. What you learned from Christionity on it is not the Torath Mosheh perspective. There is a good book that collects together various Torath Mosheh sources on it, BUT again it is only in Hebrew.

Correction, I just found out they did translate the first one.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I would like to ask Torath Mosesh Jews what their veiwpoints are on three seemingly fantastical events found in the book of Genesis. Therefore, do Torath Moseh Jews believe in:

1) a literal talking snake?

This is also a long one. Short version(s)

There is no short version. There is something that is brought down that Hashem gave the ability for a particular species to communicate in some way with Adam and Hhawah. There is also a concept that the snake, was the yetzer hara of Adam/Hhawwah given a physical form external to themselves rather than being internal. When they made the choice they made the yetzer hara became an internal part of humanity. Again, these are the short versions. The main purpose of all of the written text and all the information about it is a) for Torath Mosheh Jews to see ourselves in the story/as all of the players involved b) to be able to develop ideas of our living and interactions by analyzing the story, and c) to see that there are choices that have to be studied and calcuated and thus how the Torah gives the ability to return the situation to its optimal situation.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I would like to ask Torath Mosesh Jews what their veiwpoints are on three seemingly fantastical events found in the book of Genesis. Therefore, do Torath Moseh Jews believe in:

2) A literal story of Noah's ark?

I forgot that I had this that I provided on Quara. It is not everythong on the topic but it is a good start.

‎‏אהב עבר‏‎'s answer to What prevented the other humans from building boats and fishing during the flood Noah was in? - Quora

‎‏אהב עבר‏‎'s answer to How would Noah have kept the Ark safe for a few hundred years from the Nephilim while building it? - Quora

‎‏אהב עבר‏‎'s answer to Is the Jewish Noah's flood myth a plagiarized version of the Sumerian Gilgamesh flood myth? - Quora

‎‏אהב עבר‏‎'s answer to Did gopher wood not survive in the world after Noah’s flood because everything had changed? Is that why the ark was possibly not preserved as well? - Quora

‎‏אהב עבר‏‎'s answer to After the flood, did Noah turn his ark into a monument or did he turn it into building materials? - Quora

‎‏אהב עבר‏‎'s answer to How do Christians, Jews, Muslims explain that The Epic of Gilgamesh has a flood story similar to Noah’s that predates the Bible by circa 2,100 years? - Quora

 

[David Davidovich]

Taking this topic by topic as always I have video on this.

Okay, thanks. I will have to get around to looking at that.

 

[David Davidovich]

Both literal and metaphor. Meaning that:

1. The Hebrew language is important to understanding what the text says. There are tons of keys in the Hebrew, that are literally impossible to translate into English, w/o a large amount of commentary on words and sentence structure.
2. The names in the Hebrew text would be better translatitered as are Awthawm (אדם) and (חוה) Hhawwah. This is important because Eve is not a Hebrew word from the text.

Okay, that's new to me because I had thought that the word Eve (Hhawwah?) meant proceeding or prior to and therefore, supported the idea of the narrative being a metaphor. Similar to how Adam (Awthawn) meant something like red clay, and therefore, represented the earth that he was created from in the narrative rather than him being a literal man.

[*]The various commentaries on this have a wide dearth of information because.....this is considered to be a story about all of humanity, even though the subject is about the first of "modern" humanity. I.e. humanity from the last ~5,000 to 6,000 years.

I see. So, do Torath Mosheh Jews believe that humans or homo sapiens existed prior to 5000 - 6000 years ago?

[*]There are also Jewish sources that say that there were generation of humanity before Awthawm (Adam).

Well, that just answered my previous question. Also, I do find that interesting.

[*]There are Jewish sources that state that Adam and Hhawwah were both in one body, initially and were seperated by Hashem.

Yeah, I've heard that explanation before.

[*]The big point that all Torath Mosheh sources agree on is that the whole story/interaction is something that all Jews should learn from and is connected to the reason the Torah was given at Mount Sinai.

Well, that's kind of vague, but I'll take your word on that.

All of the above are very long stories. I will have to break down a few examples for you since trying to translate them all is very long.

Okay, and so far, that's been helpful.

 

[David Davidovich]

Yes, BUT, what you have read on this topic from Christian sources is not what Jewish sources talk about.

Well, that's an interesting thought within itself.

I am working on a paper on this. It is detailed and involved. The basic issue is that there is a LOT of Oral Torah information about the events. Many of them require looking into scientific discoveries about geological history. There are two books I know of that do a good job putting this information together. Only one of them was translated into English.

English version of the first book.

Okay, thanks.

 

[David Davidovich]

This is also a long one. Short version(s)

There is no short version. There is something that is brought down that Hashem gave the ability for a particular species to communicate in some way with Adam and Hhawah.

Okay, that's different.

There is also a concept that the snake, was the yetzer hara of Adam/Hhawwah given a physical form external to themselves rather than being internal. When they made the choice they made the yetzer hara became an internal part of humanity. Again, these are the short versions. The main purpose of all of the written text and all the information about it is a) for Torath Mosheh Jews to see ourselves in the story/as all of the players involved b) to be able to develop ideas of our living and interactions by analyzing the story, and c) to see that there are choices that have to be studied and calcuated and thus how the Torah gives the ability to return the situation to its optimal situation.

You kind of lost me on c).

 

[David Davidovich]

I forgot that I had this that I provided on Quara. It is not everythong on the topic but it is a good start.

‎‏אהב עבר‏‎'s answer to What prevented the other humans from building boats and fishing during the flood Noah was in? - Quora

‎‏אהב עבר‏‎'s answer to How would Noah have kept the Ark safe for a few hundred years from the Nephilim while building it? - Quora

‎‏אהב עבר‏‎'s answer to Is the Jewish Noah's flood myth a plagiarized version of the Sumerian Gilgamesh flood myth? - Quora

‎‏אהב עבר‏‎'s answer to Did gopher wood not survive in the world after Noah’s flood because everything had changed? Is that why the ark was possibly not preserved as well? - Quora

‎‏אהב עבר‏‎'s answer to After the flood, did Noah turn his ark into a monument or did he turn it into building materials? - Quora

‎‏אהב עבר‏‎'s answer to How do Christians, Jews, Muslims explain that The Epic of Gilgamesh has a flood story similar to Noah’s that predates the Bible by circa 2,100 years? - Quora

Okay, I will get around to looking at those.

 

[David Davidovich]

Yes, BUT as mentioned before. What you learned from Christionity on it is not the Torath Mosheh perspective. There is a good book that collects together various Torath Mosheh sources on it, BUT again it is only in Hebrew.

Correction, I just found out they did translate the first one.

Oops! I skipped this one. However, with those books only being in Hebrew, then that's not going to help me much. Plus, I find the story of the Tower of Babel strange on so many levels.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Oops! I skipped this one. However, with those books only being in Hebrew, then that's not going to help me much. Plus, I find the story of the Tower of Babel strange on so many levels.

One of them, I just found out has an English translation. It covers the areas you mentioned about the Tower of Bavel.

What is that you find strange about the Tower of Bavel?

Here is an English version of one of them that they recently translated.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

You kind of lost me on c).

Okay. Shortest version I can come up with.

1. According to Torath Mosheh Jews Adam was extremely intelligent. The issue was that he had no experience outside of having everything he needed provided by Hashem.
   • There are some who state that Adam wanted to experience a world where he would have to work for what got.
   • The external yetzer hara challenged this aspect of Hhawwah and Adam the same way that having the yetzer hara being internal provides a challenge to the knowledge that a particular path is better than the alternative.
2. In the English translations they make it seem like Hashem was asking Adam "Where are you, as if Hashem didn't know where Adam was." Yet, the Hebrew text makes it clear that Hashem was asking Adam, "Do you know where you are?" I.e. do you know where your choices/decisions have taken you.
   • Again, the idea that a Jew may decide they want to distance themselves from Hashem yet that decision has some costs in reality attached to it. A good example, there was a rabbi who told a story about a Jew he knew who became a xian. The xian Jew was still trying to raise his children as if they were part of the Jewish people while being xian. The xian Jew explained to the rabbi how he was very sad that all of his children were marrying people who were not Jewish. The rabbi responded, "How can you be sad about that? What were you expecting to happen? Your choices created this scenario for your children and they are only doing what is natural in the situation you raised them in."
   • I have attached an article I once wrote for the Institute of Jewish Ideas and Ideals on similar matters.
   • You may also want to look up a book called, "The Lonely Man of Faith" by Rabbi Solovetchich

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay, that's new to me because I had thought that the word Eve (Hhawwah?) meant proceeding or prior to and therefore, supported the idea of the narrative being a metaphor. Similar to how Adam (Awthawn) meant something like red clay, and therefore, represented the earth that he was created from in the narrative rather than him being a literal man.

The following thread may help with this a bit.
"A" Torath Mosheh View of Human Suffering and Responsibility

Post #26 specifically will provide a little bit of detail that is discussed in some ancient Torath Mosheh sources.

I see. So, do Torath Mosheh Jews believe that humans or homo sapiens existed prior to 5000 - 6000 years ago?

There are some mentions in the Talmud that they were aware of a species that could be defined as something between a human and a type of monkey. (Be aware that the word in Hebrew has a wider range in meaning than the English word monkey.) Further, there is a midrash that talks about a genetic link between (קופים) "monkies/primates/etc." Also, there is a standard that some, like the Rambam, state that would relegate some types of what is known in modern English as homo sapien as being in the animal kingdom.

Well, that's kind of vague, but I'll take your word on that.

There was a person who was on RF [who was not Jewish] who asked a question in this area once. He had researched certain Torath Mosheh sources, but in English, and he was coming to some incorrect conclusions. Several Jewish members of RF were trying to help him with explaining the actual language but it was hard for him, partially because he started out with an idea that he wanted to validate, but when the Jewish sources didn't validate his idea he seemed like he couldn't let go of that idea. So, it is best to be vague unless a person is face to face with a Jew who knows Hebrew and Aramaic.

 

[David Davidovich]

What is that you find strange about the Tower of Bavel?

Well, first of all, when in Genesis 11:5, Hashem said, "Let us, then, go down and confound their speech there, so that they shall not understand one another’s speech,” therefore, who are "us"? And secondly in verse 6, "יהוה said, 'If, as one people with one language for all, this is how they have begun to act, then nothing that they may propose to do will be out of their reach.'" Therefore, what type of things did Hashem think that they may propose to do, which wouldn't be out of their reach? And thirdly, the Tower of Babel seems like a fantastical story and I would like to make this quote from an article and post a video:

The Tower of Babel story is a fanciful attempt to account for a very real question: What was the first language and why are there now so many of them?

The video below from TED Ed shows a brief history of how languages evolve, as speakers of the same language lose contact with each other in the centuries after migration and gradually drift linguistically in different directions.

click here: Origin of languages: Tower of Babel, proto-languages, and the brothers Grimm (slate.com)

Plus, I always wondered if the workers along with their wives' languages were jumbled (even though the narrative doesn't specific that) and then as a couple, they left Babylon and spread out to other parts of the world, and that couple started a new city and then new nations (like Cain and his wife), or if groups of people were struck with having a various foreign language and those groups of people left Babylon and created new cities and new nations (e.g. maybe 10 people were struck with a certain language and 10 other people were struck with a certain language, etc.), or if individuals who were working of the tower had been struck with having different languages (as the narrative seems to be saying) and those individuals apparently took their wives and families along with them and spread out into various part of the earth (and apparently, taught their wives and their children their new languages). Because as written, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

click here: Genesis 11:1 (sefaria.org)