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Top Ten Reasons Why Jesus is Not God

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
For one thing, he does not have a good grasp of either human nature nor of theology. Nor of religion, for that matter...

Perhaps ironically, it has particularly strong marks of being entirely human-made.

Of more interest to me personally, it is also quite divorced from the main constructive roles that a deity could have: it does not understand transcendence, and it is only barely useful for inspiration, and even then with the most destructive side-effects known in human history.


I have two problems with this thread's these (two for starters)

Why?
Glad you asked!

First, it cherry picks what it thinks the Bible says and ignores the rest, particularly things Islam would not like. Like Jesus repeated claim to be Son of God or that he would die for sins and be raised from the dead.

Second, it's pretty superficial and seems more like a caricature of what the Bible says and why orthodox Christians believe the way they do

Top 10 reasons Jesus is God!
 
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whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member

I suggest that anyone who wants to know anything about God watch this video. I learned something about what Muslims believe from watching it. What Muslims believe about God is exactly what Baha’is believe about God. I really liked the way they described God on the video, while they were explaining why Jesus cannot be God. Anyone who likes logic owes it to themselves to watch this video.

Any atheists on this forum who want to know the Truth about Jesus and God should watch this video. It is kind of long but it is well worth the time spent.

One difference between Islam and the Baha’i Faith is that Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Return of Christ and the Messiah promised in the Old Testament as well as the Promised One of all the other religions, whereas Muslims believe that Jesus Christ is yet to return to earth. The other difference between Muslims and Baha’is is that Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet that will ever come to earth whereas Baha’is do not believe there will ever be a last or final Prophet.

Baha’is believe that Muhammad was the last Prophet in the Prophetic Cycle of religion, why He was called the Seal of the Prophets. We believe that the Bab and Baha’u’llah ushered in a new religious cycle called the Cycle of Fulfillment, because they “fulfilled” all the prophecies in the Bible and the Quran and all the other religions that preceded them.

Like Baha’is, Muslims believe that Messengers of God have come to earth since the dawn of human history. There are no other religions that teach this. The difference is again is that Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet, just as Jews believe that there will be no more Prophets after the Prophets in their scriptures.

What all the older religions have in common, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism, is that they are all waiting for “a Messiah” that was prophesied in their scriptures. Baha’is believe that Messiah has come and gone and his name was Baha’u’llah: Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

It's problematic to say Muslim's believe in Jesus.

Muslims do not believe the claims Jesus said in the Bible and do not believe what the apostles say about Jesus.

Crucial New Testament doctrinal claims like the adoption as sons for all who receive Jesus who believe in his name are rejected as are the repeated claim by Jesus to be Son of God and that he would suffer and die for sins and be raised on the 3rd day.

So in the end Muslims may 'believe in Jesus' but it is another Jesus and another gospel and the apostles say there is a curse on anyone preaching another Jesus or another gospel. This makes the claims 'we believe in Jesus' problematic

If Muslims believe the New Testament is corrupt, then why the appeal and selective use of the New Testament

Top 10 reasons Jesus is God!
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I’m a Baha’i, and I believe in the divinity of Christ.
If you mean that Jesus was God that is not supported by what Baha'u'llah wrote.
Baha'u'llah clearly stated that God cannot become a man.
But you can believe whatever you want to because you have free will.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Who is God married to in heaven so he could have a son in heaven??

There is no marriage in heaven. And be
Jesus was never God. That was all a man-made doctrine of the Church. Jesus never claimed to be God. He claimed to be like God or One with God but that does not mean He was God in the flesh. The Bible says that God is Spirit so we know that God is not flesh.

No, clearly Jesus is differentiating Himself from God in this verse by saying that the only one who is good is God. Otherwise, Jesus would have said: “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but me, that is, God.”

But that would not make sense anyway, because the two sentences would be contradictory.

But that does not mean that Jesus was not good. In Mark 10:18 Jesus was speaking from the station of a Servant of God, so He was humbling Himself before God. Jesus had several stations, and throughout the NT He spoke from these stations: Jesus spoke as a Messenger of God, a Servant of God, and as a Manifestation of God in the flesh who spoke with the Voice of God.

Jesus was without sin, but it was not necessary for Jesus to be God to be sinless. It was also not necessary for Jesus to be God in order to confer salvation. God gave Jesus a mission and Jesus accomplished that mission, to bear witness to the truth about God and to confer salvation upon humanity.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Jesus did not deny that He was a king but rather He answered indirectly, as was His way of communicating, but Jesus had already answered that question in the previous verse when He said:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

If the kingdom of Jesus was not of this world, then Jesus could not be the king of this world. Jesus said twice in that one verse that His kingdom was not of this world, yet Christians STILL want Jesus to return and be king of this world. But it is not going to happen, because Jesus never planned to return after He finished His work (John 17:4, John 17:11). In this case, Jesus was not indirect in His speech, He was very clear because it was important that people understand that He was not coming back.

Sorry, but the Bible clearly has numerous scriptures and examples of the deity of Jesus. Go through this article for numerous examples:

Jesus Must be Jehovah
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
It's problematic to say Muslim's believe in Jesus.

Muslims do not believe the claims Jesus said in the Bible and do not believe what the apostles say about Jesus.

Crucial New Testament doctrinal claims like the adoption as sons for all who receive Jesus who believe in his name are rejected as are the repeated claim by Jesus to be Son of God and that he would suffer and die for sins and be raised on the 3rd day.

So in the end Muslims may 'believe in Jesus' but it is another Jesus and another gospel and the apostles say there is a curse on anyone preaching another Jesus or another gospel. This makes the claims 'we believe in Jesus' problematic

If Muslims believe the New Testament is corrupt, then why the appeal and selective use of the New Testament

Top 10 reasons Jesus is God!

Yeah what "apostles" say about Jesus is much more important to Christians than what Jesus actually said, in fact they usually ignore most of his message and quote Paul more.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I just want people to know that debating about God and religion is not part of anything that is being promoted by Baha’i institutions, it is not part of any Baha’i training, and in my understanding as a follower of Bahá’u’lláh, it is contrary to His purposes and prescriptions.
It is not a debate unless people are opposing each other. Sharing what we believe about theology or anything else, and discussing what we believe, is not a debate, and it is not contrary to what Baha'u'llah enjoined Baha'is to do.

“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Jesus was deity manifested in a human body, but He was not deity incarnated in a human body.

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..

One can argue that Bahá'u'lláh is asserting that epistemologically the Manifestations are God, for they are the perfect embodiment of all we can know about God; but ontologically they are not God, for they are not identical with God's essence. Perhaps this is the meaning of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John: 'If you had known me, you would have known my Father also' (John 14:7) and 'he who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9)…..

The New Testament, similarly, contains statements where Jesus describes Himself as God, and others where He makes a distinction between Himself and God. For example, 'I and the Father are One (John 10:30); and 'the Father is in me, and I am in the Father (John 1038); but on the other hand, 'the Father is greater than I (John 14:28); and 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19). These statements do not contradict, but are complementary if one assumes they assert an epistemological oneness with God, but an ontological separateness from the Unknowable Essence.

The Christian concept of the Trinity arose out of the need to explain statements such as these. The earliest Christians tended to be "binitarian," that is, they stressed the Father and the Son. The third person of the Trinity was added because of the experience of the Spirit in Christian worship and in order to explain many doxologies and expressions used in worship that included the Holy Spirit…”
Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

As that video noted, one can use the scriptures to MEAN anything they want them to mean, but they have to be taken in their full context and in context with all the other scriptures in the Bible.

However, you are correct, if the person in Daniel 7:13-14 is only someone “like” a son of man, then it certainly implies there must be some differences.

Jesus was the Son of man, so "one like a son of man" who is rightful heir and successor to the divine throne was the second coming of Christ who would come and fulfill the Daniel 7:13. It would not be the same Jesus, it would be another man who had some differences.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90
Please note that none of the verses below are in the first person; they are all Jesus saying the Son of man will appear or you shall see him... None of them say “you will see ME coming.” Rather they refer to the Son of man in the third person.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. The term “clouds” means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men, things that cloud one’s mind and judgment. These clouds are “veils” to recognition of the return of Christ, just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun.

These verses clearly explain why Baha'u'llah was not recognized by Christians; their judgment was clouded because they were waiting for the same Jesus to return, since they misapprehended so many Bible verses. Moreover, they wanted what they wanted, which was the same Jesus they knew, but Jesus never promised to return; not once in the NT did Jesus ever say He would return. The return of Jesus in the same body was became a Church doctrine because Christians misconstrued their scriptures.

The reason Jesus was speaking in the third person is because Jesus never planned to return to earth Himself. He clearly stated that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

The nature of God is unchanging so God does not just suddenly wake up one day and decide to become a man. Moreover, there is absolutely no reason why God would want to become a man or need to become a man.

The Bible was misconstrued by Christians early on and then it became a Church doctrine that God became a man. The Church needed God to become a man for their own purposes because they believed that was necessary for salvation; but it was not necessary for God to become a man for salvation, as Jesus conferred salvation as a Manifestation of God, just as God intended Him to do.

That Jesus became God is the product of man-made Church doctrines, it is not in the Bible as Jesus never said He was God. Others said that about Him because they misunderstood the scriptures.

Believe whatever you want. I've already laid out a good number of examples from the Bible clearly showing Jesus to be divine.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Yeah what "apostles" say about Jesus is much more important to Christians than what Jesus actually said, in fact they usually ignore most of his message and quote Paul more.

The video also ignored what Jesus said. Son of God. Dying for sins and rising form the dead on the 3rd day. Before Abraham was I AM
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Believe whatever you want. I've already laid out a good number of examples from the Bible clearly showing Jesus to be divine.

It's hard getting past Jesus being the word of God that made the universe or the world being made FOR Jesus.

You can't say either of those about any mere prophet or angel.

Top 10 reasons Jesus is God!

additionally AIG has a similar article

quote
In his trial before the Sanhedrin Jesus is once again charged with blasphemy because of his response to the high priest’s question: “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” (Mark 14:61) Jesus responded, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven” (Mark 14:62). Then the high priest tore his clothes, charged Jesus with blasphemy, and condemned him to death (Mark 14:64). Why did the high priest respond that way? Because Jesus quoted from Psalm 110:1 and Daniel 7:13–14 and applied the words to himself. In Daniel 7 the divine Son of Man comes before the Ancient of Days, and all peoples and nations serve20 him. The Pharisees recognize Jesus’ divine claim here and charge him with blasphemy, intending to put him to death.
unquote

10 Biblical Reasons Jesus Is God
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Believe whatever you want. I've already laid out a good number of examples from the Bible clearly showing Jesus to be divine.


definitely

Answers in Genesis makes a good point about prayer to Jesus

Quote
The Early Church in the New Testament Prayed to Jesus
Prayer is something that should be addressed to God alone, but Jesus calls his disciples to pray to him (John 14:13–14; 16:26). In the book of Acts when Stephen is being stoned to death, he calls out to the Lord Jesus to receive his sprit (Acts 7:59). Interestingly, the term for “calling on” (epikaloumenon) recalls the appeal of Peter to the people in Acts 2:21 to “call on” (epikaleshtai) the Lord to be saved. Paul also describes the Corinthians as those who “call upon [epikaleo] the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 1:2). In the Old Testament, people “called on” on the name of Yahweh (Joel 2:32). The Corinthians were people who addressed Jesus as Lord in prayer.
unquote
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sorry, but the Bible clearly has numerous scriptures and examples of the deity of Jesus. Go through this article for numerous examples:

Jesus Must be Jehovah
You can mix and match scriptures to make them say whatever you want to believe, as that video noted. As such there is no way you will ever come up with a definitive answer to this question by looking at verses.

I do not need to rely upon the Bible to know who Jesus was and wasn't, since I have the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

Christians have been indoctrinated by the Church to believe that Jesus is God, so there is no way they are going to change their beliefs unless they decide to question them, open their minds and try to think of other possibilities. Christians are not obligated to do that unless they choose to because God gave us all free will. If they want to remain Christians, there is really no incentive for Christians to question the belief that Jesus was God because then they would have to question other beliefs they hold.

You are free to believe whatever you want to and I will believe what I want to. I do not want to argue about it.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
You can mix and match scriptures to make them say whatever you want to believe, as that video noted. As such there is no way you will ever come up with a definitive answer to this question by looking at verses.

I do not need to rely upon the Bible to know who Jesus was and wasn't, since I have the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

Christians have been indoctrinated by the Church to believe that Jesus is God, so there is no way they are going to change their beliefs unless they decide to question them, open their minds and try to think of other possibilities. Christians are not obligated to do that unless they choose to because God gave us all free will. If they want to remain Christians, there is really no incentive for Christians to question the belief that Jesus was God because then they would have to question other beliefs they hold.

You are free to believe whatever you want to and I will believe what I want to. I do not want to argue about it.


I believe it because after reading the Bible through 30-40 times it looks like that is indeed the claim.

Jesus is 'more than the temple' who is 'more than the temple' but God
Matthew 12:1–8
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Funny thing, that is what I just said to you. :)

I do not question that Jesus had a divine nature and a divine mind, I only question that all of God was contained in a human body.


Thomas said “My Lord and my God!”

and in Greek it is “My Lord and THE God!”
this is a strong statement but consider how these explicit claims fall in the gospel of John

1) BEGINING
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God

2) MIDDLE
Before Abraham was I AM (a title of God)

3) END
Thomas said “My Lord and my God!”

It seems to be a major theme of the gospel of John
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe it because after reading the Bible through 30-40 times it looks like that is indeed the claim.

Jesus is 'more than the temple' who is 'more than the temple' but God
Matthew 12:1–8
Clearly, Jesus was more than a man. It is my belief that Jesus was made of the substance of God, but that does not mean that all of God became a man.

God is Spirit. The Spirit of God remains in His Own High Place in heaven and does not ever descend to earth. God manifested Himself as the man Jesus, who had a divine nature. Jesus represented God on earth and Jesus perfectly reflected all of God's attributes, so in that sense Jesus was God.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The video also ignored what Jesus said. Son of God. Dying for sins and rising form the dead on the 3rd day. Before Abraham was I AM

There is more than one way to take "son of God". Perhaps we are all children of God the father.. Perhaps God has always been in us since the days of Abraham. Parables and metaphors can be understood on many levels. Jesus, who was considered to be a man without sin, died an unspeakably cruel and humiliating death (which absolutely offends a Muslim's sense of justice) Yet his death was NOT final. .. The loss was NOT final. Do you really want to condemn people who see it differently than you see it?
 
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