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Featured Top 10 reasons Jesus is God!

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by whirlingmerc, May 11, 2019.

  1. tigger2

    tigger2 Member

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    Response to Clear in post #28:

    An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 809: “1. Hapax denotes a. once, one time.... b. once for all, of what is of perpetual validity, not requiring repetition.”

    (Also see hapax in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament; Liddell and Scott's An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon; the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (‘Little Kittel’), Eerdman’s Publ., 1985; the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. 1, Eerdman’s, 1990; and A.T. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. 5, p. 404.)

    Like so many words (in NT Greek and OT Hebrew as well as in English) hapax has more than one meaning. Either the a. or the b. definition is an honest translation of the Greek word hapax!

    Look at these trinitarian translations of hapax:

    Heb. 9:26 - “He has appeared once and for all” [hapax] - Jerusalem Bible, NJB, GNB,

    TEV, NEB, Phillips.

    - “once for all” [hapax] - NAB (1970), NAB (1991), RSV, NRSV, REB.

    Heb. 9:27 - “reserved for men to die once for all” [hapax] - MLB.

    - “Destined that men die only once” [hapax] - JB, NJB, Living Bible.

    Heb. 9:28 - “Christ sacrificed once for all[hapax] - MLB.

    - “Christ died only once[hapax] - JB, NJB, LB.

    Jude 3 - “once and for all” [hapax] - NEB, JB, NJB, GNB, TEV, Phillips.

    - “once for all” [hapax] - RSV, NRSV, REB, NASB, NAB, NAB (1991), Mo, MLB,
    LB, AT (Goodspeed).

    Compare the various translations at Jude 3 - Bible Gateway


    Also note John 10:38 which does not even have the word hapax, but TEV adds “once and for all” anyway!

    Yes, even the trinitarian standard, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Zondervan, Vol. 2, pp. 717, 718, tells us hapax means

    “once in the sense of an event that cannot be repeated. It is so used of the sacrificial death of Christ (Heb. 9:26 ff; 1 Pet. 3:18).... The author of Heb. sees the death of Christ as the once-and-for-all [hapax] sacrifice” - p. 717.

    And

    “Jude 3 urges its readers ‘to contend for the faith which was once for all [hapax] delivered to the saints.’” - p. 718.

    A final note on hapax comes from the highly trinitarian (and highly anti-Watchtower Society) “cult” expert Dr. Walter Martin. This “born-again” spokesman likes to quote Dr. Mantey in an attempt to show the “mistranslations” and “perversions” of God’s Word by the Watchtower Society. Interestingly, Martin himself interprets hapax in Jude 3 as “once for all time”:

    “ ‘...contend earnestly for the faith once [hapax] delivered to the saints,’ that’s King James, but the [NT] Greek is a little better,” says Martin. “The Greek says, ‘... put up a stiff fight for the faith once for all time [hapax] delivered to the saints.’” - Introduction to the Cults, cassette tape recording by Dr. Walter Martin, 1980. - Compare Jude :3 NWT.
     
    #41 tigger2, May 30, 2019
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
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  2. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    I of course do.
     
  3. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Which Apostle said so? Please name him and quote that he joined Jesus' final burial ceremony after Jesus' death, that never happened, and the event of Cross . Doe one think that anybody who dies on the Cross becomes a god?
    If not, why should Jesus become G-d, please?

    Regards
     
  4. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    That is a less than credible belief, he comes over as a human just like the rest of us with many faults and failings.
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    What were Jesus' faults and failings? o_O
     
  6. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    None I know. However he has quite a few strengths which include patience.
     
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  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I fully agree. :)
     
  8. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Jude 3 is a great verse
    .. put up a stiff fight for the faith once for all time [hapax] delivered to the saints
     
  9. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    John 2
    2 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
    3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
    4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
    5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
    6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
    7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
    8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
    9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
    11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
    12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

    13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, 14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
    17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
    18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
    19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
    22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
    23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
    24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, 25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

    How did John know that Jesus meant from it the temple of his (Jesus' ) body, please? What was the source of John's knowledge, please?

    Regards
     
  10. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    The Holy Spirit and this was written in retrospect after the resurrection
    and Jesus spoke to the apostles about many things then, which includes explaining significance they may have missed

    I do not believe John understood it at the time Jesus said it and if Jesus gave an explanation at the time it probably went over John's head but he would remember later as the Holy Spirit was to bring Jesus words to remembrance
     
    #50 whirlingmerc, Jun 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
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  11. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    So, these are just John's fanciful ideas and one's also.
    Jesus never said anything to mean that . Jesus never died on the Cross, John was not an eyewitness of the event of Cross, like others John also fled from the scene of Cross only ladies of Jesus family were left there. Jesus did not ascend to the Heaven, he secretly moved out of Judea and the Roman empire. Jesus was neither god nor a son of god, he was a prophet/messenger of G-d who migrate in such circumstances as did Moses.
    It is a week arguments by the OP to make Jesus god or son of god, sorry. No human was god or son of god in physical or literal terms, never, whether Jesus or Krishna or Buddha or Bahaullah, none of them.

    Regards
     
  12. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    So, it is good to note that the reason number two is also invalid and Jesus was/is not a god or son of god in literal and physical terms. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "this was written in retrospect after the resurrection"

    Does one mean that the apostle faked the account of resurrection after the event of Crucifixion of which he was not an eyewitness, please?

    Regards

    ____________
    John: 21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
     
  14. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    They've actually stood up to all kinds of scrutiny.

    Look at the posters here. They divert attention to other verses rather than scrutinize the proffered 10.

    Yes, but due to his dual nature he was also God.
     
  15. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    nope

    The apostles were eyewitnesses of the resurrection.
    They just did not understand much of the meaning of what happened until after the resurrection

    ( Not the least of which was the death of Christ which they saw as a tragedy and nothing more )
     
  16. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "The apostles were eyewitnesses of the resurrection"

    It is not correct.
    Matthew mentions, "Then all the disciples deserted him (Jesus) and fled."
    Right, please?

    Regards
     
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  17. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Top 10 reasons Jesus is God!
    So, there is no valid reason for Jesus to be god or son of god. It is, as per my understanding, a Pagan-Christ concept imported by Saul of Tarsus aka Paul. Jesus was born a Jew and remained a Jew all along till his natural death death that happened much, repeat much after the event of Crucifixion in which he was delivered from the Cross in a near-dead position but very much alive as a Sign to the Jewish people to whom Jesus was sent, and he was not sent to the gentiles. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Jesus did have a dual nature, but Jesus was not God, because there is only One True God, and God does not become a man... Baha'u'llah explained the twofold nature of Jesus....

    “Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67
     
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