Top 10 Reasons for Civil Marriage Equality

[Ardent Listener]

I believe the cities existed and that they were destroyed by God, but it was for general wickedness. I don't remember the Hebrew word, but in some translations it reads 'to know' instead of 'have sex with'.

Besides, even if we assume God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because they practiced homosexuality, Jesus taught us to love, to forgive, and to not cast the first stone unless we are without sin. Well...are any of us?

Whatever the religious objections are, none of them refute the 10 reasons in Maize's OP. Here they are again in case anyone has a legitimate rebuttlal.

Thanks CX.

Very well said.

 

[Green Gaia]

The Bible clearly states that it is wrong.
GOD wiped out 2 cites because of this behavior.
While it may be politically correct to accept this behavior, it is against all religious beliefs.
America says we all have to right to our own beliefs.
But do the homosexuals have to right to actually put my life in jeopardy?
Let me explain,
The Bible says if you support the people who support the things against GOD, you are as guilty as they are.
THAT MEANS IF YOU SAY HOMOSEXUALITY IS OK THAT GOD CONSIDERS YOU A HOMOSEXUAL!
It means that if we allow this, GOD will again wipe us out.
We cannot allow this people!
It is SICK!
It is DERANGED!
I tell you, I know the POPE did not go straight to Heaven, because GOD considers him a Child Molester, because he allowed it in the church.
Read your Bible.
Stand you ground.
We are not second class people.
We are the world.
Only if we stand for GOD.

This is off topic for this discussion. This thread is about civil marriage, not your religion's hatred of homosexuals. Please pay attention to what forum you are posting in.


Can we get back ontopic now, please?

Please refer back to the first post and refute or support the points made in it.

Thank you, and thank you to those who tried to steer the discussion back on topic.

 

[Aqualung]

I think it was on topic, though. He says he should not support civil marriage because supporting it means (in his mind) that you're against God. With God's history of destroying those who are against him, it's very much self-preservation to not support civil marriage equality.

 

[Green Gaia]

I think it was on topic, though. He says he should not support civil marriage because supporting it means (in his mind) that you're against God. With God's history of destroying those who are against him, it's very much self-preservation to not support civil marriage equality.

Then he should go spew his venom against homosexuals in the religious debates forum or refute the points of the OP.

 

[Aqualung]

But it's not religious. It's completely politcal. And it's only venom because it's anit-homosexual, isn't it? But it's akin to wanting drunk driving to be outlawed. If drunk driving is legal, you stand a much more elevated chance of getting killed by a drunk driver. If this guy supports gay marriage in this civil, politcal way, he feels he has a much more elevated chance of getting hurt, as well. Just because you happen to not believe that that person who would hurt him exists or would do that sort of thing, does not automatically change this into a religious question.

 

[Green Gaia]

But it's not religious. It's completely politcal. And it's only venom because it's anit-homosexual, isn't it? But it's akin to wanting drunk driving to be outlawed. If drunk driving is legal, you stand a much more elevated chance of getting killed by a drunk driver. If this guy supports gay marriage in this civil, politcal way, he feels he has a much more elevated chance of getting hurt, as well. Just because you happen to not believe that that person who would hurt him exists or would do that sort of thing, does not automatically change this into a religious question.

Please don't compare gay marriage to drunk drivers. I find that insulting. Drunk drivers kill people, gay marriage hurts no one.

Where does he get his belief that God is going to reign down fire upon everything if BGLT people are treated as equals? His religion! So how is him spouting religious views to justify his position of treating BGLT people as second class citizens NOT religious?

But I'd really like to get back on topic and hear from anyone who would like to refute the 10 points made in the OP.

 

[Aqualung]

Please don't compare gay marriage to drunk drivers. I find that insulting. Drunk drivers kill people, gay marriage hurts no one.

So you say. His postition is that gay marriage does hurt people - it will hurt those who support it when god decides to show his wrath.

Where does he get his belief that God is going to reign down fire upon everything if BGLT people are treated as equals? His religion! So how is him spouting religious views to justify his position of treating BGLT people as second class citizens NOT religious?

Because it's not simply "You don't follow my religion so you shouldn't get rights." It's, "God doesn't like what you are doing, and if I support that, he might kill me." It has nothing to do with you or your religion, and very little to do with his religion. It's pure self-preservation.

But I'd really like to get back on topic and hear from anyone who would like to refute the 10 points made in the OP.

I think he has a good refutation. Why don't you tell him why he should vote to legalise something that could harm him in the long run?

 

[Aqualung]

It's not that you don't follow the beliefs of the religion. I'm sure he could care less about that. It's that he can't support you in following those beliefs.

Why are the GBLT people pressuring christians to throw their morals to the side? Why can't people vote their concience? Why are you punishing us for following a religion? It's important to him that he not get killed for supporting something like that.

 

[jeffrey]

I think he has a good refutation. Why don't you tell him why he should vote to legalise something that could harm him in the long run?

How is this goig to harm him? What 2 people do behind closed doors is not his or anybody's business. 2 people of the same sex recieving benefits that he already enjoys is not harming him.

 

[Green Gaia]

So you say. His postition is that gay marriage does hurt people - it will hurt those who support it when god decides to show his wrath.

He offered no proof to his statement, why should I take his claim seriously?

Because it's not simply "You don't follow my religion so you shouldn't get rights." It's, "God doesn't like what you are doing, and if I support that, he might kill me." It has nothing to do with you or your religion, and very little to do with his religion. It's pure self-preservation.

It has EVERYTHING to do with his religion. And again, he offered no proof to his vitriolic statements.

I think he has a good refutation. Why don't you tell him why he should vote to legalise something that could harm him in the long run?

Right after he proves that it could harm him...

Now can we PLEASE get back on topic of the OP. If you wish to continue a religious discussion, take it to the appropriate forum, thank you.

 

[Jaymes]

It has nothing to do with Christians throwing their morality to the side. Say you hate gay marriage! Refuse to let gays in your congregation marry! We've been finding other religions and sects for years, it's not like we can't continue to do so. But for the love of all things good, don't drag your morality onto my relationship.

What if we made antiMormon legislation? What if all of America suddenly decided that all Mormon couples couldn't inherit property, be with their partner on their death bed, file joint taxes, adopt children together, take paid time off work to be with their spouse...

Would you be okay with that, Aqualung?

Who in the hell am I killing by loving Liz? Do you realize how damn much it hurts when you say that by loving Liz and spending time with her I'm going to kill people?

The Christians are not the victims here. Nobody is being denied rights by gays being allowed to marry.

 

[Green Gaia]

It's not that you don't follow the beliefs of the religion. I'm sure he could care less about that. It's that he can't support you in following those beliefs.

Why are the GBLT people pressuring christians to throw their morals to the side? Why can't people vote their concience? Why are you punishing us for following a religion? It's important to him that he not get killed for supporting something like that.

Should we have allowed those opposed to civil rights in the last century vote their concience?

Allowing equal rights for ALL people is not forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do. Don't like gay marriage? DON'T HAVE ONE!

Nothing is going to be taken away from Christians because a man will be legally allowed to visit his partner in the hospital? How is allowing that punishing you? On the flip side, NOT allowing him the right to do so, IS punishing him. How is that fair?

 

[Green Gaia]

Who in the hell am I killing by loving Liz? Do you realize how damn much it hurts when you say that by loving Liz and spending time with her I'm going to kill people?

C'mon Jensa, it's not like their hurting people with their anti-gay laws, just us BGLTs. We are second-class citizens, afterall. They've made sure of that. Two people of the same sex can't even draw up a will together and have it legally enforced in my state. Do you treat full-fledged citizens that way?

 

[Pah]

... Why are you punishing us for following a religion? ...

If your religion includes the thought that it is all right to force your religious opinion into law - law that controls others with different faiths and dogma, then perhaps punishment (whatever that is) should be given

 

[Ardent Listener]

Last night on the Michael Savage radio program, a gay man called in to try to get Dr. Savage to reconsider his opposition to gay marriage. The caller was very polite and tried to remain so during the debate. The caller tried to present arguments such as the 10 points you presented.


At times I really like to listen to Dr. Savage and he has gone after Republicans, including President Bush, when he disagrees with them. (Which is often.) However, in my opinion, Dr. Savage struck out when he tried to present an argument against gay marriage. Savage did not throw out any religious reasons as an argumnet against gay marriage. He did however link gay marriage to the demise of western civilization. He did not go into detail how the two were linked. He also mentioned that a marriage is between a man and a woman to produce children. When the caller brought up the point that many people who wish to marry can not produce children, Savage shouted over him and tried to put words in his mouth. (An old an cheap radio talk show host trick).

I too would like to hear a logical argument against gay marriage. Perhaps someone could change my mind about supporting it. But I have not read one yet on this thread.

 

[jamaesi]

But it's not religious. It's completely politcal. And it's only venom because it's anit-homosexual, isn't it? But it's akin to wanting drunk driving to be outlawed. If drunk driving is legal, you stand a much more elevated chance of getting killed by a drunk driver. If this guy supports gay marriage in this civil, politcal way, he feels he has a much more elevated chance of getting hurt, as well. Just because you happen to not believe that that person who would hurt him exists or would do that sort of thing, does not automatically change this into a religious question.

My father murdered a little girl because he drove drunk.

I NEVER EVER hurt or killed ANYONE by just being gay.

In fact, I'm the one who gets hurt. I've been beat up and mocked and held down and kicked in the genitals while being called a lezbo.


How dare you. Either you point out how it hurts you or anyone else I don't even know when I have a homosexual relation, or you stop comparing homosexuality to something that actually kills.

For shame.

 

[Ardent Listener]

My father murdered a little girl because he drove drunk.

I NEVER EVER hurt or killed ANYONE by just being gay.

In fact, I'm the one who gets hurt. I've been beat up and mocked and held down and kicked in the genitals while being called a lezbo.


How dare you. Either you point out how it hurts you or anyone else I don't even know when I have a homosexual relation, or you stop comparing homosexuality to something that actually kills.

For shame.

For shame.

 

[jamaesi]

You know what, I'm not done yet.

My father killed a little girl whose mother abandonded her. She lived with her step-father who abused her and ignored her. My father hit this little eight year old because she had been sent to walk across busy streets alone to get food from the store. He hit her because he was too damn drunk to stop. She died at the scene. My father is the most abusive careless heartless person there is, that that's the kind of person who drives drunk and would willingly hurt others.


And to compare that to the fact I like girls? That I have romantic relationships that are just as strong and wonderful as straight people have with their lovers. That I live in fear of being hurt just because of my sexuality, something I can not control. That homosexuals are denied their rights to each other and their children? That homosexuals have violent crimes commited against them just because they happen to be gay?




That's pretty sick and heartless to do.


I don't know why it's okay to treat GLBT like second-class citizens, like we're subhuman. We are just like you.

 

[Darkdale]

In fact, I'm the one who gets hurt. I've been beat up and mocked and held down and kicked in the genitals while being called a lezbo.


How dare you. Either you point out how it hurts you or anyone else I don't even know when I have a homosexual relation, or you stop comparing homosexuality to something that actually kills.

You know, reading over this thread has made me realize how much of the same sickness Christians and Muslims seem to share (NOT ALL OF THEM). They justify hurting others with religions they claim are peaceful and loving. It just makes me madder than hell. And you guys know how mad I can get. I call it a sickness, because people who can be rational 90% of the day, simply fall apart when discussing things that are prohibited by their religion. They will support 90% of all civil liberties, except when it comes to things that are prohibited by their religion. They simply can't understand why it makes people angry to be killed, beaten, or denied equal rights. I call it a sickness, because they aren't angry when they treat people worse than I would treat my own enemies. They feel righteous and justified in their cruelty.

How do you fight against that? You can't, because it is a sickness.

 

[Aqualung]

It has nothing to do with Christians throwing their morality to the side. Say you hate gay marriage! Refuse to let gays in your congregation marry! We've been finding other religions and sects for years, it's not like we can't continue to do so. But for the love of all things good, don't drag your morality onto my relationship.

He's not. He's just saying that he can't vote to legalise it because he will stand culpable for it in the end. It has nothing to do with your relationship.

What if we made antiMormon legislation? What if all of America suddenly decided that all Mormon couples couldn't inherit property, be with their partner on their death bed, file joint taxes, adopt children together, take paid time off work to be with their spouse...

Would you be okay with that, Aqualung?

Well, since we weren't talking about my feelings on this matter, I don't know why you bring that up, but if you felt that it could be putting your well-being in danger to let mormons do that, then yes.

Who in the hell am I killing by loving Liz?

In his mind, you're killing that new guy whose name I can't remember.

Also, it's not you that's killing him. IT would be him killing himself if he voted that way.